From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Towards a WYSIWYG word processing (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:29:45 -0500 Message-ID: References: <83d10freh8.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520465298 17047 195.159.176.226 (7 Mar 2018 23:28:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 23:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: John Wiegley , daniele@grinta.net, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 08 00:28:14 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1etiTP-0000yN-SI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 00:27:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36081 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etiVS-00050r-LM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:29:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35734) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etiVM-00050m-Hf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:29:53 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etiVL-0005ZP-MN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:29:52 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ua0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22d]:36287) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1etiVH-0005Wj-9F; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:29:47 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ua0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k7so2697702uaa.3; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 15:29:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=mSZHo012l63yKDAtqCoqSwHmsil0xFJINe3c+dU+fhE=; b=tD/EGGV/qY3Qgd+POVePwMOt5CXAqLFYOcfpE6Jg/WZoikj8CA2scqFpyqwJVeGtF2 OOAitohg5fcCGjri36Q6oTP4/UoZORxA6kgukPZVuzg703As58io99UPejok4YSyzs+s ap/DHCreaKgab9CqQz5iTqSonfW5/dx/dzfNgEb/NQCsGsdjduePv/Uad/FzuL5ig9/L ILHWStK1VeHhyu8BwONnpnRfdEPAy5af+G7QvVt9KNzzPgLfmMuz189ZMpEbRuIhrdah 1lhcovFfa5TAo1Uol7orhTMtcIHU+IuYbNv1iaLxi3x5TYJXnuTd1M1vM1nvQIRpGSt9 xqug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mSZHo012l63yKDAtqCoqSwHmsil0xFJINe3c+dU+fhE=; b=r8mXR/IAo4lzbto2rFW1IcJ4P5XLO9n4bWFvObxzHZysBncTC9HT7WIdbgJu6fk8dm xU0nY9iPsf1kyF2aSUZ6OrPTV6Ny3jBoS8oTDMSVFs0VErGJ1ldniOkdkG0JxD2yEnD2 wYraIWHg2pbQGYu/3Wtek7xs3Z7p7wqc2+hSoKpYQXTqqlo/STMjTW+26KFMEu/PwRiQ 2Y0yfXyC2cv7zFI/fcRMzmNxkDRrDIHJ2aqx3ESXGNFKSjkTLNpNx0rzAP2H5rDbpbUo 8vobf9L3bTWoUAgz0bjymHvE5ty2H2U0peV8okzTH6xNf0TXsI4FBvXsOn9NW57LdC2N 7AEg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPDsTrll9YqWpt4tieK6tUc4hKCvAhxdfwsSppXSy2K4S+lkQdOw Y2Vss/EfoytzHygh5eKuG+c/soV+vkVUwxDEOns= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELss9k7VlIvRZF7WZ0LPu0REVn7+Wyal+LOwMa0hsHypQoG4LVaMfdex2ah0QESwilr1pyAHHSx8Knn4WTfAng0= X-Received: by 10.176.76.77 with SMTP id d13mr17718237uag.123.1520465386149; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 15:29:46 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.31.155.65 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:29:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83d10freh8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7petTmyBeCfuG0hrFn-ajuR-KPY X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:223483 On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: John Yates >> >> Until Emacs has some way of modeling the structure of a text document >> I doubt that we will see any significant uptake in its use a >> LibreOffice replacement. > > I think you have in mind much more sophisticated word processor than > it would take to make significant progress in this area relative to > what we have now. Extending enriched.el to do a few things it > currently can't will already be a huge step forward, in that it will > allow users who want that to produce reasonably pretty documents in > Emacs, send enriched/text emails, etc. I am quite curious what "few things" you have in mind. I have no doubt that with filling in the presence of variable width fonts and with some extensions to enriched.el it will be possible to compose documents which, when viewed by a third party, look workman-like. My skepticism is around the experience of authoring those documents. Until we have something akin to paragraph styles and templates that experience is going to feel primitive and tedious. Hence my contention that if we are going after the WYSIWYG use case then we need more or uptake simply will not occur. (My understanding is that Richard's vision includes WYSIWYG editing, though I could be wrong.)