From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:30:12 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org> <838sdfdzxo.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912121603.bsp53vgfwj3y62in@Ergus> <831rj7dvhg.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912131802.fiowctrzc2yx4ozu@Ergus> <83y2lfcdq2.fsf@gnu.org> <83d02pdb7b.fsf@gnu.org> <0deb5f7b-43f1-2611-b99d-327520eae158@yandex.ru> <83pn6o9y2z.fsf@gnu.org> <87bli7sew4.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16162"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ergus , Yuan Fu , Emacs developers , Dmitry Gutov , ghe@sdf.org, Eli Zaretskii To: =?UTF-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8gS2F5YWFscA==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 16 05:32:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIOB5-00046I-BX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 05:32:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44196 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIOB4-0007MS-Bd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:32:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58596) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIO9M-0006r5-IJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:30:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-f45.google.com ([209.85.167.45]:33061) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIO9L-0001rF-0K; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:30:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-f45.google.com with SMTP id x77so5402143lfa.0; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DUPGQNvbgSJ+LcP2ltyBgOQmDFuvYpZ/O1u2LGHkemc=; b=Ur/UIAkCnFjBoGRSEc1ca+vkj3Sci1H+jlhkboN24KnXT57CVMjaJFMGMNmQmZLI0y 101iUXtfEG9ZIgvnZFzQ09sckygp7FmFIzGmTj2Dw3OI9ledMmMUFWam5+Yna3MGQIUg KMEluOfyCpFOPnkLlzZEa5GBA592nEl0aAE1j8e85HFb9kVQeBk56OcCTyR9pppZ9P2D LWLprP8SbZRGKkXpOOu1xfq3lkl8hZkc5tjDkG4jR01pnAU0aNgIQJqYg+2qh+99LxsF WVDtgBcNrQYSA6ZKDseZhps4by40iYuhOYKRd/O4mLZ++nk4rRdGuFHAQBwicJnzFOAU gnyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533XcEd5VCLiGAnvc3+Mo74yMIbjjLEifT4pqYqfgp84zVKtF5La 1bSzbG1W4xZHHKYN77VP4DFhSP3sm/aOJqcpuVM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXbWZUCCO9lg9vaU2Jvo8+/LXAPsqKaXsBIBA/23xHKyNC2u9Uqv4+ocP/quMAuuFa2pgzoB9k+jbW+sxDUE4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:2027:: with SMTP id s7mr6709240lfs.75.1600227024352; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:30:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87bli7sew4.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.167.45; envelope-from=john.yates.sheets@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-f45.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 23:30:24 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255817 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 3:01 AM G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp wrote: > 1) How does this interact with a scenario where user goes back and forth > between editing the minibuffer vs. some displayed buffer? I am aware that the current behavior supports this possible style of interaction. I cannot remember having ever used it myself. Based on that experience my attitude is that such interactions are rare enough that I am willing to disadvantage them a bit to improve the more common cases. To restore the ability to interact as you have described I suggest a key binding to re-layout the all windows, including the expanded minibuffer. Would that not allow you to carry out your back and forth interactions just as you would do today? > 2) One might be looking at their notes while editing the minibuffer. > E.g. imagine reading some docs and M-xing some commands from it, or > naming an Org link, etc. I am not sure I follow. While one is reading the doc and M-xing commands, the minibuffer is likely to be in its minimal, collapsed state, just as it would be today. Even if, while executing some M-x command, the minibuffer were to grow to overlap some portion of the visible window(s) I contend that, most likely, the user would complete that interaction, thereby causing the minibuffer to revert to its collapsed state, prior to the user needing to return to his/her source document. > 3) Would it be possible to revert this back to the current behaviour > with a user option? Of course. That is the emacs way. And, were such minibuffer behavior ever to become available, I cannot imagine it being shipped as the default. It would be opt-in. > 4) How is this better than how other editors do their =E2=80=98command > palettes=E2=80=99? Isn=E2=80=99t it better to just pop up a centered fram= e and do > completions there? With the added benefit of being able to move the > thing around and focus back to the buffer. If you go back to when I first joined the thread you will see that I am especially interested in optimizing emacs on very large, hi res screens. Popping up a dialog box in the middle of such a screen is nearly as bad as expanding the minibuffer up from the bottom of the screen. I find the prospect of needing to drag a dialog box around less appealing than the single key binding to re-layout the windows (as suggested above). A key binding is definitely more consitent with emacs' traditional solutions. > 5) While a command palette at the bottom of the application is somewhat > obscure, one up top is probably novel. Frankly I don=E2=80=99t like the i= dea > of having a single empty line right in the line of my sight, > constantly, taking up space right where my eyes go by default when > reading stuff. You must live in a world devoid of title bars nor menu bars. /john