From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: First draft of the Emacs website Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 18:26:16 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87io4lem98.fsf@petton.fr> <56604A9C.7080508@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b8d0cae60c3052606b745 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449185196 2656 80.91.229.3 (3 Dec 2015 23:26:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 23:26:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 04 00:26:34 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a4dGj-0006TT-RF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 00:26:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37899 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4dGj-0005bD-1i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 18:26:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47894) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4dGU-0005at-UL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 18:26:20 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4dGT-00052n-Nm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 18:26:18 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]:34659) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4dGT-00052f-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 18:26:17 -0500 Original-Received: by pfbg73 with SMTP id g73so16258082pfb.1 for ; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZMPSb5iAsEmmyL5Bw4IXc8e73at66FAxFZIAPWznMdc=; b=k3Hmm7eUuNYFi3g8csCemzcotuSx3B+99LAz7kQR5IZ4PYXJ5MnT2tWOItE60xVL7w VXcA5wS6rl22067akNtsufNq6QsNeBP+2r9CSfrgaFAqQbQvMxhspQYU7ianeZZda7/s /fmPO1LDtZTgI3r6wLsNgfCEbvoKT7JBtdDRvQ0c54GWx4PbkxqYu3px/zYM12Jnaic8 hD2fhR/7okrdPpP744u67DPNKrfWb6GZkaksUuPoa3y7PBIl2LS1vLGdQ2I7uXejC2EY R2GIWK3y/pL4432lm4Y4ON3EDb/HssdVSqXwr0Oc2pCnWBR7kFyo45NtxDzVJyD4xkxb VWZg== X-Received: by 10.98.68.8 with SMTP id r8mr16894787pfa.159.1449185176869; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 15:26:16 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.66.84.35 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:26:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: V6ioCSBvm7-xy76H2i8BVkywxJw X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195840 Archived-At: --94eb2c0b8d0cae60c3052606b745 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Drew, You and I are old "grey beards". My point was that mentioning things that we - as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If you accept such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first goal. /john On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > FWIW - > > > > (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to > the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) > > > > I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. > (I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.) > > > > * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that > Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an > interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the > fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. > > > > Not presuming "*an interest in Lisp*" is not the same as forbidding "*any > mention of Lisp*". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is > inappropriate. > > > > I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into > specific aspects of Lisp. > > > > But it can be mentioned that you have available a powerful, easy-to-use > (yes), very high-level programming language to extend and interact with > Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO) > > > > * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". > > > > Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be > verboten in this context. > --94eb2c0b8d0cae60c3052606b745 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Drew,

You and I are old "grey bear= ds".=C2=A0 My point was that mentioning things that we - as seasoned u= sers of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the website as= a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given an app= ropriate message - be coaxed into trying it.=C2=A0 If you accept such messa= ging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourself in t= he mindset of such a viewer.

Your comments suggest= that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first goal.

=
/john

On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com= > wrote:

FWIW -

=C2=A0

(My assumption is that anyone who= does not already have some exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, b= ut I would be happy to be corrected.)

=C2=A0

I disagree. You do not= need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. (I use M-x grep, and th= at's about it, these days.)

=C2=A0

* Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate.=C2=A0 We ha= d better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motiv= ate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume it.=C2=A0 Even mor= e off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensi= ons.

Not presuming "an interest in Lisp" i= s not the same as forbidding "any mention of Lisp". And I = disagree that any mention of Lisp is inappropriate.

=C2=A0

I agree= that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into specific aspe= cts of Lisp.

=C2=A0

But it can be mentioned that you have availabl= e a powerful, easy-to-use (yes), very high-level programming language to ex= tend and interact with Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO)

<= u>=C2=A0

* Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on".

<= /u>=C2=A0

Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and nee= d not be verboten in this context.


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