From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: First draft of the Emacs website Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 17:17:10 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87io4lem98.fsf@petton.fr> <56604A9C.7080508@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b7ca08ffb7e052605c0a4 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449181044 3613 80.91.229.3 (3 Dec 2015 22:17:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 22:17:24 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 03 23:17:19 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a4cBi-0005Oc-Sk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 23:17:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37639 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4cBi-0006TX-7f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 17:17:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56171) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4cBd-0006SA-OW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 17:17:14 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4cBc-00079o-7Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 17:17:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]:34757) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4cBc-000797-0t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 17:17:12 -0500 Original-Received: by pfbg73 with SMTP id g73so15401961pfb.1 for ; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 14:17:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=9wjt1P5Nz97ko8GfIJv0EmKX7vtfWjCTV0rNw4c2AxM=; b=ttb8u+VH8IyXGLJuokzh+jpO0cwnWk5sqIy7hn5CLxX6ZnOTVUDLmOYR173jRbhi8A Em3g1XM3ABtzft7+lGL4If+Esyb9D6DsVIz7uKh+AKal9I22Sd1ip9b3DdqQerBQgVDC Y27uOOrla3dcVrpe0uVLr0GRiBIt59mT0mVa9W89juPKqFG9e4QabPae+/3rBHlMH8yY 3Fpm3XyZQMD8pghtcp8ojSryYngu1embMSBjdcb56fPsEitwvzmEO8NWNux58jVHXOh3 27SgPYBhYVk11h+j+ZPZzXBfX3cFV3/cXazdXgHDOiZAVfWPN6JjbPSubFN4SvzhnGnf fSrQ== X-Received: by 10.98.68.80 with SMTP id r77mr16741572pfa.113.1449181030904; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 14:17:10 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.66.84.35 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:17:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56604A9C.7080508@gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: vC9Q5i_exZeWaHp5h9L0dEQ-BPg X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195834 Archived-At: --94eb2c0b7ca08ffb7e052605c0a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Who is your primary audience? There is no point preaching to your choir. (Here your choir consists of you yourself, Emacs users and Lisp fans.) I would argue that the site should be focused on persuading those who know little or nothing about Emacs to give it a try. Such a person is likely to be someone who has been weened on a combination of GUI and command-line tools. (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) Do not pitch as virtues aspects that a newbie most likely will perceive as a barrier to entry: * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". * The parenthetical "M-x list-packages" makes sense only to someone already familiar with Emacs. Do not pitch as virtues packages that actually compare poorly to the competition: * Notably Emacs' support for gdb pales before most IDEs. * Newbies likely have a long, long road to travel before they will ever consider discarding their current GUI / WYSIWYG / web-based productivity tools for Emacs' text-only calendar, mail project planning packages. Style: * Generally brevity is a virtue. The text below the circular icons tends to be wordy. It feels like you are trying to persuade me by overwhelming me via "featuritis". * Excessive use of 'including'. * "Content-sensitive editing modes, including syntax coloring, for a variety of file types including plain text, source code, and HTML." (Awkward and - with two use of 'including' - hard to parse. What is a 'mode' to a newbie?) * "Complete built-in documentation, including a tutorial for new users." (Those are two separate items.) * "Full Unicode support for nearly all human languages and their scripts." (Language support is a bit of a stretch. The distinction between language and script is unnecessarily technical. I would mention support for editing of bi-directional text and support for additional encodings beyond Unicode (e.g. DOS code pages, ISO-8859-*, etc).) * "Highly customizable, using Emacs Lisp code or a graphical interface." (A casual reader might take that as claiming we have a configuration GUI. Customize is really little more than a text-based forms package. It is better than nothing but I would avoid over-selling it.) /john --94eb2c0b7ca08ffb7e052605c0a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who is your primary audience?=C2=A0 There is no point prea= ching to your choir. =C2=A0(Here your choir consists of you yourself, Emacs= users and Lisp fans.)

I would argue that the site shoul= d be focused on persuading those who know little or nothing about Emacs to = give it a try.=C2=A0 Such a person is likely to be someone who has been wee= ned on a combination of GUI and command-line tools. =C2=A0(My assumption is= that anyone who does not already have some exposure to the command-line is= a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.)

<= div>Do not pitch as virtues aspects that a newbie most likely will perceive= as a barrier to entry:
* Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappro= priate.=C2=A0 We had better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is g= ood enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume= it.=C2=A0 Even more off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialec= ts and Lisp extensions.
* Displaying Lisp code is probably no= t a great "come-on".
* The parenthetical "M-x list= -packages" makes sense only to someone already familiar with Emacs.

Do not pitch as virtues packages that actually compa= re poorly to the competition:
* Notably Emacs' support for gd= b pales before most IDEs.
* Newbies likely have a long, long road= to travel before they will ever consider discarding their current GUI / WY= SIWYG / web-based productivity tools for Emacs' text-only calendar, mai= l project planning packages.

Style:
* Ge= nerally brevity is a virtue.=C2=A0 The text below the circular icons tends = to be wordy.=C2=A0 It feels like you are trying to persuade me by overwhelm= ing me via "featuritis".
* Excessive use of 'in= cluding'.
* "Content-sensitive editing modes, including = syntax coloring, for a variety of file types including plain text, source c= ode, and HTML." (Awkward and - with two use of 'including' - h= ard to parse. What is a 'mode' to a newbie?)
* "Complete = built-in documentation, including a tutorial for new users." =C2=A0(Th= ose are two separate items.)
* "Full Unicode support for nearly al= l human languages and their scripts." (Language support is a bit of a = stretch.=C2=A0 The distinction between language and script is unnecessarily= technical.=C2=A0 I would mention support for editing of bi-directional tex= t and support for additional encodings beyond Unicode (e.g. DOS code pages,= ISO-8859-*, etc).)
*=C2=A0"Highly customizable, using Emacs= Lisp code or a graphical interface." =C2=A0(A casual reader might tak= e that as claiming we have a configuration GUI.=C2=A0 Customize is really l= ittle more than a text-based forms package.=C2=A0 It is better than nothing= but I would avoid over-selling it.)

/john
--94eb2c0b7ca08ffb7e052605c0a4--