From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Yates Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:09:26 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38207"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Emacs developers To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 21:14:07 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdBW-0009pe-Db for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 21:14:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60274 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdBV-0001PR-67 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:14:05 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpd7G-0006EY-8j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:09:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-f50.google.com ([209.85.167.50]:47093) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpd7E-00071y-QX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:09:41 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-f50.google.com with SMTP id y19so51469379lfa.13 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:09:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iPzDX+oJEDe22k1BR2NhLia79N4kmnRW/sZ3om2ADVs=; b=RqfgFCaOWyu/Uxcq3yQRYyAlmRojL3SQ2/YkaHIinS45m0An4Km0ylbjhfBTIXGfeE d2mht+9pl/zChegIwgb9sdce+asc79xFwRFg/Knz9Mt6z1tAjnti+OA/7g5PA9jLHlTv JW0X5M2iESRPKa8m8Gca9JxCL3PMGqegw0hgyQNT5mdN6ocga2zgJSry4xlpoex0WNb1 ShijlNBQNP3eEcT8jJvJ72zS56sCowH88S23rWVbiYJKIvy1jGY8JJgcF+iUwbvf473/ MS0ZSNUnB7+lE9DD8T9FqvrU4P4WmMjQPhWK6xnt+7JdN9Ae+GTcBJ+Xvx/Sve5EMhLx HHIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531VVTRaRvgupXCVZDn2EF3uNKxCLmMxQylGdljZL6lpbwNX4ACT qkHmw6QzczZ8vuUtiURTTHfWl1xXNso7U7Lwyjc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt0iB80EWAdiUOKhEn/p/YUJUSqpc3erKQVoG6UXrJ7eZ+KHLLBQTxVGMIjinRu4sED5mzFNd6ER9sveynS4g= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:41c6:: with SMTP id d6mr15117757lfi.323.1608149378452; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:09:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.167.50; envelope-from=john.yates.sheets@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-f50.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261052 Archived-At: On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:20 PM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > But OTOH we have other buttons (New file, Open, Undo, Cut and Paste) > that a lot of users expect from a text editor. My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of the population was computer literate. These days I would expect them only on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute beginners. Folk using more featureful editors (emacs or otherwise) can be assumed to have already mastered some of the fundamentals of editing text. Put another way, can we not assume that anyone, even those using emacs for the very first time, has some notion of key bindings (even if those are C-c, C-x and C-v) and expects New, Open, Save, SaveAs and Close on a File menu? /john