From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Corwin Brust Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 11:17:08 -0600 Message-ID: References: <874k6ewkb4.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgo6v1ll.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8yuv03a.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r19iuzb5.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32315"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, Emacs developers To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 08 18:18:31 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n6FMM-0008Da-MX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 18:18:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42344 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6FML-0006QW-Pz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42326) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6FLI-0004LX-Kp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:17:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-f46.google.com ([209.85.208.46]:39808) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n6FLG-0003yw-I4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:17:24 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-f46.google.com with SMTP id c71so23625866edf.6 for ; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:17:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mJEuXtn1aOOPxBx5uM0jb7tl+earPPGxS6OPo6xWYzs=; b=bfr7gO5xQlgWa/YVKohwq41gWh/4lFcxth52/h3ryAALlHR4Jegx/q+WF6IlXIdflF Cu0n9fNQF/LMU+l8/PgwuNSeThqiQXn/Gh2jfdFoJh1sjPxl6hIqZv6Xt4raeHnGr1D+ 584+kC3JmdCHlHbLoJ1H+L1sI6DyQXHV/UGKNRNHprmgG1ZvHQYj7bqjGAUOdZx2SLAx HJQtRVPIBK7xSwwiUcAMRwZAB9dfZvTG+bvNLB2icbKn5b6lw0ZkaceCX1Kt360cQDzx VSgDMoftBPmml+vuBEJZTAd1JCQcr2svO3P2/5bUCHCBzA/BiB6GksLvAbKzhiXvMJPk 5nlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dB9t4NLviPsuYMghAJWdilQ8A6/TIDnEmB0LZemoZWVwEFhmE ibIPHMXO8B4DArzsvH6ep11gm2N7wn1/nBmas8w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxdndT5JVY0XNzLzIE0kWI2EQzkYXsCb5Zj6vBF1TMdRzAVRJukRRKu8I6kSc8oOYRmR4Qk4Ksywemmv6J40Ts= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:417:: with SMTP id d23mr2371394eja.469.1641662240508; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:17:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.208.46; envelope-from=mplscorwin@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-f46.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:284478 Archived-At: Hi developers! On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 8:47 AM xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions. wrote: > > Jan 8, 2022, 17:32 by tomas@tuxteam.de: > > > On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 02:44:04PM +0100, xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions. wrote: > > > > [...] > > > >> There is something preventing custom from being improved by leaving the > >> default value of a single option intact, whether you get it or not. > >> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Sorry, this is (again) borderline arrogant. There are many of us who > > don't "get it". I don't think this is the way to further a discussion. > > Please accept that others might be right, as you expect others to accept > > that you might be right. > > > > Cheers > > -- > > t > > > > Yes. That is the point. I'm trying to show what this answers to > does the exact same thing, and it must stop. I would very much prefer to be able to use a single file to contain my hand-coded configurations as well as to save customizations. I found this a very comfortable way to build an emacs configuration without understanding elisp over decades. During the last couple of years I have learned more elisp (yay, fun!) and I don't find any frustration having to set up my custom-file explicitly, now that this is something I prefer doing. During the "middle years", I knew enough to configure a fresh emacs by retyping a minimum set of elisp into a .emacs file to get myself started from a fresh install. (I didn't really understand how this code I was typing worked, I just knew it made emacs easier for me to use.) Once my .emacs was created on the newly setup system I would use customize to amend the configuration as I used the editor. From that point, I would migrate my configuration from machine to machine until I somehow lost the .emacs file, at which point the process would start over. Placing customized output into the .emacs file meant I had only one file to keep track, trying to keep my 'live configuration settings" going. I didn't find the mixture of hand and machine authored code in my configuration file unexpected. In fact, I consider that most programs with a "control panel" seem to work this way: if I manually edit the rc files that work. If I use the GUI the program updates my rc files for me. In this light, I see the present approach (supporting a single .emacs file with all config/customizations in) as rather more elegant and showcasing Emacs' expert manipulation of my files. Emacs is one of the only programs I trust to edit files for me In any case, I would discourage efforts to complicate the minimum set of user-space files required to effect a combination of configuration and customizations. I hope that additional understanding of Emacs would not be required to reenable this behavior if my perspective isn't common among emacs users. Finally, it's unclear to me where the level of zeal toward changing the current behavior is coming from. I can understand that people may well not share my view. I don't understand the sense of urgency and supercilious tone. Perhaps I can ask those who strongly disagree with my perspective to also share personal stories of how their proposed changes would have improved their own use of Emacs over the years. TIA