From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Corwin Brust Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Misleading messages about new versions Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 12:31:27 -0600 Message-ID: References: <877d9xtl2e.fsf@turtle-trading.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091426d05d7fea0e9" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12657"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 14 19:34:21 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nJgB3-000332-H6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:34:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50292 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJgB2-0000Iz-KY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:34:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39982) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJg8V-0006xW-QB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:31:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54]:44725) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJg8T-0002SK-Iz; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:31:43 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-f54.google.com with SMTP id p14so15050807ejf.11; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:31:40 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xehApuC1Gtd7n/HmqEyGrvmsVUV1ZUK+/FAtpLP69VQ=; b=qvF27uHgFncYPky9Pnx7wDUhEGdx1ocWnUfKUVyyM6JVusAiuuCVPTKaNNcVFbDWoJ 7kzYJvw2pDOBIe/gKcO3yP+xeNB6s+kLzYQfjTVUen027S7Eps8jgtkG8qZqMSKi7cbf VIyGI7yqpKaFb/XbIyRpJd9nYzinjXdoPyMhqc1ydMZbo9dIr5od+PIyRz2NftIPwWi/ kp6nbF1Vi3YHAwbihYEdlM2Wb7KTcT34XTncAhRNRyz8E58jLxpXXMGOksxopRC+GNgO 5qmhwdPWkpiY8mK8voBc6B1FZpI91Tc+dC2NTFXSjJ27SKqEQkIwzmCVCCzFsp0OllSF 2i+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GgtV/iF6ewzHUM1xTx6D188grwiOpt4qlSQ96gKaLEeipv7su kkSr1imbtfFnZj1cz8vfRGChXPBFL2rbrQE4zRM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfUuveSKD/7yRtNlLABv4Z63NJKyu+BGtUeYpHlMaLXeZ+bhSFsx74tQQ+4wLeCNZVofzZkirs9IWqQZWlARY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7d8e:: with SMTP id oz14mr80601ejc.448.1644863499091; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:31:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877d9xtl2e.fsf@turtle-trading.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.218.54; envelope-from=mplscorwin@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-f54.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:286291 Archived-At: --00000000000091426d05d7fea0e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, 11:28 Benjamin Riefenstahl < b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net> wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Richard Stallman writes: > > For a new package, it could say, > > > > We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA. > > The initial version number is X.Y. Here's what Whatsit does: > > Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam > generator in my book. I would not subscribe to such a bot on principle. > Benny, Respectfully, I consider this caution misguided as applied to the quotation you kept. We are not talking about a bot in the sense of interactive software that generates responses from end-user interaction. Any messages that we decide to send will be templates hand-crafted by Emacs developers. To deny "personality" in such messages is to deny personality to ourselves in our capacity as developers, and by extension to the GNU project. That said, I think it makes sense to agree on terms and boundaries quantifying any external character we reflect in automated communications respecting Emacs. This, perhaps the only concesus persona possible would be for none to be discernable. I suspect we can do (in my view) more. I least, I think it is worth discussing in concrete terms and with examples and counter examples, what may be possible in this area and if that would advance our goals and honoring our principals. How do you stand on =E2=80=9DExciting news, we've added to EPLA" vs R= MS's original proposal, above? What if we added an exclamation point there? (I think it's better without.) To be clear,. I do agree that a message which is (or pretends to be) from a program of some seeming "intelegence" and also uses/implies (e.g) the first person, would be off-putting and, indeed, concerning. For example, if Richard's suggestion had been "Hi, this is the GNU ELPA upload ferry with exciting news about a new package", or such, I think I would take your point and agree with the need for caution. WDYT? --00000000000091426d05d7fea0e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, 11:28 Benjamin Riefenstahl <b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.n= et> wrote:
Hi Richard,

Richard Stallman writes:
> For a new package, it could say,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit = to XXGNU ELPA.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The initial version number is X.Y.=C2=A0 Here's what W= hatsit does:

Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam
generator in my book.=C2=A0 I would not subscribe to such a bot on principl= e.

Benny,

Respectfully, I= consider this caution misguided as applied to the quotation you kept.

We are not talking about a b= ot in the sense of interactive software that generates responses from end-u= ser interaction.=C2=A0
Any messages that we decide t= o send will be templates hand-crafted=C2=A0by Emacs developers.=C2=A0 To de= ny "personality" in such messages is to deny personality to ourse= lves in our capacity as developers, and by extension to the GNU project.

That said, I think it = makes sense to agree on terms and boundaries quantifying any external chara= cter we reflect in automated communications respecting Emacs. This, perhaps= the only concesus persona possible would be for none to be discernable.

I suspect we can do (in my= view) more.=C2=A0 I least, I think it is worth discussing in concrete term= s and with examples and counter examples, what may be possible in this area= and if that would advance our goals and honoring our principals.

How do you stand on =E2=80=9DExci= ting news, we've added <pkg> to EPLA" vs RMS's original = proposal, above?=C2=A0 =C2=A0What if we added an exclamation point there?= =C2=A0 (I think it's better without.)

=
To be clear,. I do agree that a message which is (or pret= ends to be) from a program of some seeming "intelegence" and also= uses/implies (e.g) the first person, would be off-putting and, indeed, con= cerning.=C2=A0 For example, if Richard's suggestion had been "Hi, = this is the GNU ELPA upload ferry with exciting news about a new package&qu= ot;, or such, I think I would take your point and agree with the need for c= aution.

WDYT?
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