From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Joseph Garvin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:34:24 -0500 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000959fdb05a36a2bbc" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="62369"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , ndame@protonmail.com, stefan@marxist.se, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 16 17:36:50 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jP6ZN-000G7Z-Pj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 17:36:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36078 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jP6ZM-000502-Rb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:36:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50885) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jP6XL-00024Q-Is for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:34:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jP6XK-00014W-8J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:34:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-xe41.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41]:36551) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jP6XF-00012F-L3; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:34:37 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-xe41.google.com with SMTP id 184so2687749vsu.3; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 08:34:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=E+549ineCpHwHedg7pfsuAx+ReZu1MAhkn2yoAWWc9Y=; b=tlQgPFvKVYgqWsffzbMB8fC9hv6JW4JrEDSCoB7cKOTkAqcxyVKoxuX6y+YIvZJKlR nucx29p+BGYxOWCoptrgfW9XbhzQVLnG6UqXhJzyn2HirFER5uCFbueKWSWU/CCo2ccK bFLod80ZDrfnfPvKrOBhO/uZ+nGl/xvEK+y5j+xkYNFNSn7kdaJlJLJMtfx+r+3oq6YN cjN6r3Kt1gq2XSFrabAs0Kaydo/nAjO7icqQruZ7TAnelJ4XQy2lCoYBR6qcnma7YFgX T+9iApdPlm9KgeawF2gXzqTP3wpIgzslgyOV4H/HinZcZkECJoGYG4FGclWP90R/Pwcy aQFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=E+549ineCpHwHedg7pfsuAx+ReZu1MAhkn2yoAWWc9Y=; b=UB/oRk+WHu6utBahzkDzPxg0vcn0T3QPLgac9vc8NxiiYjNfAOJ6H3tQ3Bl9pzF7x3 e0FhuRmIW7DQv/qK1F2tuzHMc/Y17XkTZ6hl3VPLUfj5mCxgZItaL0mCSxMTHnwRG+30 os/lqbKNorTH/ozj7uMIIK4KTpgkyQf9KKzwNXJ2KO3ClRBt318BoVCBi4Slo+LF5qlI QOnKjFzMXRCUHfCFhLGPPkm7X4TLHV7qa3UmyRtNtsckDykeP9ip3vN0f9VEO67i2/88 4nbbbzaqjlZMcGz5bwDTGZMeWCrYC7wx2p6Mjg3KSqZFkBelHMyhzPWM7ggbWtd9M1v1 CY8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaVZNTO9/BdQbU50f7/OWLv2Meq9KuKH+kJdiVT+tbZF4+Gs+8f +dRVXRaseAWCe4bTsZRHuP/iA0AdSPgngd3Shio= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI40rNirG9vJrkoZ62gMlywmVhbhrEEA01za7EN+lp2gtjZTjg/09RtL6GY4aEkvvwN3nnHJnURsVc7YPb8M7s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:31a9:: with SMTP id d9mr9178463vsh.152.1587051276637; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 08:34:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247091 Archived-At: --000000000000959fdb05a36a2bbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think part of the problem with things like the menu bar is that if you're using emacs at all you are demonstrating a willingness to tolerate: * A UI that doesn't look or behave like any other application * Keyboard shortcuts inconsistent with every other application * A bizarre ancient vocabulary inconsistent with every other application. e.g. no Microsoft word user has ever considered themselves to have opened a "buffer". They open "files". They move "windows" around, not "frames." They cut and paste not kill and yank, etc. You are basically making a commitment to being or becoming a power user. I certainly would not have put up with it if I didn't think it was going to save me a lot of time as a software developer (and it does, everyday). I doubt anyone invests the mental effort to deal with learning emacs nowadays unless this is their goal. If you just want to do "casual" text editing emacs is a very weird choice in 2020. If you're a new user the idea that seeing kill and yank in the menu bar as options helps discoverablity doesn't really hold when already nothing is named the way you expect or acts the way you expect. If you're an experienced user, then I would guess that like me C-h f,v,k and blog posts are 99% of your discoverablity experience. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 9:58 AM Drew Adams wrote: > > I'd like to remind all of us that > > there's a lot of "propaganda" out there telling everyone to turn off > > GUI features such as the menu bar and the tool bar. The network is > > full of personal init files that "proudly" do that, and forums like > > Reddit are full of such advice to every newbie who asks about > > configuring their Emacs. It is hard to be enthusiastic about making > > these features more modern when the community seems to be divided on > > whether they should at all be present. IMO, we should first get our > > act together and decide whether these features are important, and then > > speak up according to those decisions when we see advice to the > > contrary. > > +1 > > And count me as one vote for the menu-bar being > important, especially for discoverability. The > tool-bar is less important, IMO, but I'd still > vote to keep it. > > --000000000000959fdb05a36a2bbc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think part of the problem with things like the menu bar= is that if you're using emacs at all you are demonstrating a willingne= ss to tolerate:

* A UI that do= esn't look or behave like any other application
= * Keyboard shortcuts inconsistent with every other application
* A bizarre ancient vocabulary inconsistent with every other app= lication. e.g. no Microsoft word user has ever considered themselves to hav= e opened a "buffer". They open "files". They move "= ;windows" around, not "frames." They cut and paste not kill = and yank, etc.

You are b= asically making a commitment to being or becoming a power user. I certainly= would not have put up with it if I didn't think it was going to save m= e a lot of time as a software developer (and it does, everyday). I doubt an= yone invests the mental effort to deal with learning emacs nowadays unless = this is their goal. If you just want to do "casual" text editing = emacs is a very weird choice in 2020.

If you're a new user the idea that seeing kill and yank i= n the menu bar as options helps discoverablity doesn't really hold when= already nothing is named the way you expect or acts the way you expect. If= you're an experienced user, then I would guess that like me C-h f,v,k = and blog posts are 99% of your discoverablity experience.

On Thu, Apr = 16, 2020, 9:58 AM Drew Adams <d= rew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> I'd like to remind all of us that
> there's a lot of "propaganda" out there telling everyone= to turn off
> GUI features such as the menu bar and the tool bar.=C2=A0 The network = is
> full of personal init files that "proudly" do that, and foru= ms like
> Reddit are full of such advice to every newbie who asks about
> configuring their Emacs.=C2=A0 It is hard to be enthusiastic about mak= ing
> these features more modern when the community seems to be divided on > whether they should at all be present.=C2=A0 IMO, we should first get = our
> act together and decide whether these features are important, and then=
> speak up according to those decisions when we see advice to the
> contrary.

+1

And count me as one vote for the menu-bar being
important, especially for discoverability.=C2=A0 The
tool-bar is less important, IMO, but I'd still
vote to keep it.

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