From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?U8O4cmVuIFBpbGfDpXJk?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Musings on creating an HTML-based WYSIWYG mode Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:16:58 +0200 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1525248920 7612 195.159.176.226 (2 May 2018 08:15:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 08:15:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 02 10:15:16 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDmuw-0001s9-5G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 May 2018 10:15:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48991 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDmx2-0007KX-SO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 May 2018 04:17:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56988) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDmwk-0007Fx-Ej for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2018 04:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDmwf-0004kz-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2018 04:17:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]:52149) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDmwe-0004kT-HB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2018 04:17:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id j4so21230515wme.1 for ; Wed, 02 May 2018 01:17:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FVW1O0modz7SAjivrk/WQy1tW7wuWs+5wIsMiExKlxc=; b=BpjGxCcgHu5/LvTY03wcC4Mhh0cdXM2PMYeo1q20q87D7A3/fzs9gRwdrHqkQdIa7y 4tMKi1wjIhGw875hqme6MeBn/pNHW2u1uvAbNbAZmwDF+84yAgDF1Jfib1KTHDJhL10/ oNUelVAmthvJXgSafiadsdQsKwMJGd3qLpH11st8nXGcbIF2v5R4w/D7yFAPDRDzhho3 hfnbqino36Cz4purXlRBnSF67uyUGEWpCjuOL3pga34/+O4i3qkwzlQsnfYDwrUoJDv2 1ZD6QPSvSiHNe20k0cRn2Wp9WiSR5nG+6GKOSEAck9aSjDC2BEegVEJE91axyruCclVn yI0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FVW1O0modz7SAjivrk/WQy1tW7wuWs+5wIsMiExKlxc=; b=pD2cwbpePuEeZdWS1zrPD/BwSsdcVXLAoBtJiVGuqFdYe2AZeVdna1O82SAPMyse5e pQBs47FEqJm5Qq1O0oJxne0C+L5/M02zlMbiBjMg70QdaQ8SOclz3+Okb7VuEZAIzqkK 6RDotqEYzo3+DV8SCWujULUQ6K70XoGu64FzBIKTW7LppKrmy8psBTrbJXBQWbrfu/EU ixn0LaTebokkqQX5LUxYzd0ISJVyrc7x9T6+B4Um785Hh2d/wjbVu0hFNDfXS3/A4DQh X74HipCF9eW8hYwuoEWlieljyNM4vbMKwNsOVud5o94TtbVWGZsbsULfySjkkApwW1JI BCfw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBOtLalNF+uhELBrpUZZXsTo9SOh7K36HM6BqmL/cq6SORwKumZ ++BHBKjVrdZxd/3yW4c/nz1z1ncrKIdy/vXiCCmqJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqYC7LZj/eeO6PmTXbjxk6Z3ODvPZxoFLNJA6di0UFyb1yDVP9fpqYTFWnKIkDJHmr5q2AU88AITEw8jpkQiJw= X-Received: by 2002:a50:a8c1:: with SMTP id k59-v6mr2089802edc.192.1525249019468; Wed, 02 May 2018 01:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.167.213.195 with HTTP; Wed, 2 May 2018 01:16:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225023 Archived-At: On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > S=C3=B8ren Pilg=C3=A5rd writes: > > > The question is if it is worth the effort? To me the greatest benefit > > of a WYSIWYG editor would be if I could edit in the "finished" website > > eg. sort of like editing the elements in the developer tools of > > chrome/firefox. That means CSS has to be supported, and potentially > > also javascript. If a website is only HTML it is easy enough for me to > > visualize how it is going to look. > Dont let my comments be seen as a detraction of your project. I only tried to put words on how a WYSIWYG editor would fit in with MY use of Emacs. There are of course many different people using Emacs in many different ways. > You seem to be talking about programming a web site, not writing text? Yes, HTML is the base for quite a lot of webpages. And my guess would be that most people writing HTML in Emacs are doing it to be published on the web as a site or part of such. > > The vast majority of text out there on the web is produced in a WYSIWYG > editor of some kind or another, for instance the JS-based editor in > Wordpress or any of a number of editors inside other CMS systems. I belive you are right. Most content is probably written in some CMS system WYSIWYG editor. My guess is in fact that most content on the web is created by people who dont know HTML at all. How many of these people would realisticly switch away from the build in editor and switch to Emacs for doing this content? Especially as the CMS might not be working with HTML at all but potentially some other Markup langauge more friendly for focusing on the content. Further the CMS systems could extend the markup with custom components useful in the system. When you combine this with the styling/theme of the CMS it is very hard for Emacs to present the HTML in a way that is equivalent to the CMS system. > > > Building a WYSIWYG editor in Emacs sounds like a complicated affair > > and I am not sure it is really worth it as editing plain standalone > > HTML is becoming a niche thing. It could be useful for HTML emails > > though! > > Editing text for publication is far from a niche thing, and HTML is the > common serialisation format. > I do know HTML is used for classical publications. But even then the HTML is most likely consumed by some tool that combines it with the styling used for the final result. Thus the HTML presented to you and the result in a book will not look the same if the same styling is not applied. The simplest thing is how pages are split and margins are fitted. When writing a book/article and seing the result immediately is needed, I think one the most essential things looked for is how it is layed out over multiple pages. At least these are my experiences from doing LaTeX in Emacs. I use the execelent auctex tooling that even has the abillity to preview/show the result inline in the buffer as it is typed. When a formula is completed it is shown as rendered, but if you move the point back into it you see the latex formula instead. But even with the preview WYSIWYG features available I ended up rarely using it, instead prefering to have a PDF reader open next to Emacs controlled from within emacs.