From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:31:46 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li> <87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li> <87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li> <83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org> <20200429172739.GB4002@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048a41705a4730131" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="75674"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jonas Bernoulli , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier , Adam Porter , Eli Zaretskii , Kyle Meyer To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 29 21:35:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jTsUF-000JZY-SD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:35:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46068 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTsUE-0002pY-T8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:35:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46808) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTsTS-0001xp-0q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:34:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTsTE-0006Y9-Bw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:34:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::136]:40411) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTsRL-0005t9-Gg; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:32:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id b24so2089842lfp.7; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:32:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+fjErTaxcJnYPUxHyOZ0yNixyvgbQ+8HJkfO54nh21c=; b=BNg9/hXPdWceZKM8PSVlcPpN5MAUcy4hZPT9toeNrGbyQaLZj2kQr9ivMaYBJpy1k0 DR2ZjsU0M87cy7PDsv6qcU18ctVocQkSMwr/7HmY6wUFGE/ks60SjzvL+YgbsMc8Zgs+ ihaFFCFTuijgbi6ceIXGruLiuOmLTQ/5KLpJk2bsmTcY6QAZWOewNePdj6ZOjjh1MKMR Ehaz0UnIeREj5uaj0pCnabDd8rxebQ770sQ9pqUCbiak9+I2imZc1FbM/GsSAT1rJuhb OCBkwWPR3L69v4YQRISCjHPT1/vQuHKJOocDgxenAmRVQGC8astXjewGaMBTulQE83Qt aXDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+fjErTaxcJnYPUxHyOZ0yNixyvgbQ+8HJkfO54nh21c=; b=Jqc9rusNX8Dgo5PVINhAn9ZnPMsF0jnpnN5MAULfgEWzOzfGJSUJCTEl58KATdFPW1 +uK1S7rSDlLfovr0sVjgdlT7OYBWoY9k7JUz0TaUJl0HffuvE8epTecHBUuWiLhuP5es h3yU11Kl8jx8WS2tZxPHfEMLubqBAr4RGt/oRMfq2Sj5QAgFa6npQhFr3ST7z2+NdM6a AFZlpEriko18dd49t7jhxNAukyaaX1w3roipZqUDz4SdOX5OsajzdB8nRSSP2L2vya7K 7JKFn6MeJwD/hyVQe2L6jJPOKp19qb53AXMNBKpo22KgOgwCa3fpxVvCZXdJA5dM/4QO cxFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYKOQ/eXLydGA6G1ucPaGN88RFtEtRBvHPmouPiSOAHf9t6XD0b l35nhuhnJlsIp2BhCvtxlwHhXtaEAPCGJ8enFLg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKohdaPiz4UTCSx+9AgPfajwIiuwbm4XtjraGJ+QCHA4BqxBsFB1lnRBVwq56awW+E18d5uWnXOLSpBDQq/xhs= X-Received: by 2002:a19:2258:: with SMTP id i85mr6902995lfi.86.1588188733281; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:32:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200429172739.GB4002@ACM> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::136; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x136.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248186 Archived-At: --00000000000048a41705a4730131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > You miss the central point of my argument. The problem is not that the > doc > > is hard to find, it's that I *have* to find it to know which are the > > related functions. > > Let me put it to you that there is NO PROBLEM here. If you, for any > reason, forget the function name `assq' you can find it within seconds > by typing i alist in the manual. And if you don't like reading > documentation, why make that everybody else's problem? > I suggest you go out an take a deep breathe. Your tone is extremely unpleasant, and remember that I was asked to clarify what I meant so I did. At no point am I suggesting this is mandatory and that everyone should do like I say. (it also looks like you still don't really understand my point based on the example you cite) > > It is much easier for the mind to think in terms of namespaces, ..... > > Whose mind would that be? It is much easier for me to read short words > than long words, and that applies to code as much as to text. > > What are you proposing to do? Replace `assq' with `list-assq'? YUCK! > This will make code more turgid, and thus more difficult to read. And > then, will we get `math-+' and `math-*', as though we were programming > in Java? Double yuck! > I never talk about replacements. > > Once related functions are namespaced together, almost all tooling > benefit > > from it. No need to provide a manual grouping the unrelated functions > > together, just document each function: > > What "tooling benefit"? The manual groups related functions together, > not unrelated ones. You want to fragment the manual into just > documenting each function separately? I disagree strongly with this, > too. > I never talked about fragmenting the manual. > What you want to do is to bloat out our source code by replacing decades > old traditional names with "namespaced" names. Taken to extremes, you > want to replace car and cdr with list-car and list-cdr. People hacking > on Emacs tend to be of a higher intellectual calibre than to need such > mental aids. > Wow. > > Again you strawman my argument. Try to understand my central point, > > and then reply to that instead of details of "how you do it right now > > and that works for you". > > I understand your central point only too well. You want to impose > bucket-loads of work, disrupting Emacs development, bloating out code, > making it more difficult to read and understand. And all for what? So > that the very occasional trip to a manual by a newcomer can be spared? > > Tell me, how would you feel if somebody decided to "namespace" your > name, Philippe Vaucher? I would guess that you would decide you like > your name the way it is. Wow. Yeah I want to impose bucket-loads of work, I want to disrupt Emacs development. That's totally not strawmaning my position. Not at all. I understand I apparently touched a nexus by discussing this and having some people agree with me, but if you are not able to discuss this in an open manner I suggest you refrain from discussing it at all. Kind regards, Philippe --00000000000048a41705a4730131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> You miss the central point of my argument. The prob= lem is not that the doc
> is hard to find, it's that I *have* to find it to know which are t= he
> related functions.

Let me put it to you that there is NO PROBLEM here.=C2=A0 If you, for any reason, forget the function name `assq' you can find it within seconds<= br> by typing i alist in the manual.=C2=A0 And if you don't like reading documentation, why make that everybody else's problem?
=

I suggest you go out an take a deep breathe. Your tone = is extremely unpleasant, and remember that I was asked to clarify what I me= ant so I did.

At no point am I suggesting this is = mandatory and that everyone should do like I say.

= (it also looks like you still don't really understand my point based on= the example you cite)
=C2=A0
> It is much easier for the mind to think in terms o= f namespaces, .....

Whose mind would that be?=C2=A0 It is much easier for me to read short word= s
than long words, and that applies to code as much as to text.

What are you proposing to do?=C2=A0 Replace `assq' with `list-assq'= ?=C2=A0 YUCK!
This will make code more turgid, and thus more difficult to read.=C2=A0 And=
then, will we get `math-+' and `math-*', as though we were programm= ing
in Java?=C2=A0 Double yuck!

I never ta= lk about replacements.

=C2=A0
> Once related functions are namespac= ed together, almost all tooling benefit
> from it. No need to provide a manual grouping the unrelated functions<= br> > together, just document each function:

What "tooling benefit"?=C2=A0 The manual groups related functions= together,
not unrelated ones.=C2=A0 You want to fragment the manual into just
documenting each function separately?=C2=A0 I disagree strongly with this,<= br> too.

I never talked about fragmenting t= he manual.

=C2=A0
What you want to do is to bloat out our source code = by replacing decades
old traditional names with "namespaced" names.=C2=A0 Taken to ext= remes, you
want to replace car and cdr with list-car and list-cdr.=C2=A0 People hackin= g
on Emacs tend to be of a higher intellectual calibre than to need such
mental aids.

Wow.

<= div>=C2=A0
> Agai= n you strawman my argument. Try to understand my central point,
> and then reply to that instead of details of "how you do it right= now
> and that works for you".

I understand your central point only too well.=C2=A0 You want to impose
bucket-loads of work, disrupting Emacs development, bloating out code,
making it more difficult to read and understand.=C2=A0 And all for what?=C2= =A0 So
that the very occasional trip to a manual by a newcomer can be spared?

Tell me, how would you feel if somebody decided to "namespace" yo= ur
name, Philippe Vaucher?=C2=A0 I would guess that you would decide you like<= br> your name the way it is.

Wow. Yeah I want t= o impose bucket-loads of work, I want to disrupt Emacs development. That= 9;s totally not strawmaning my position. Not at all.

I understand I apparently touched a nexus by discussing this and having = some people agree with me, but if you are not able to discuss this in an op= en manner I suggest you refrain from discussing it at all.

Kind regards,
Philippe
--00000000000048a41705a4730131--