From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 10:10:13 +0200 Message-ID: References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <83v9lesapw.fsf@gnu.org> <83pnbms9m8.fsf@gnu.org> <83a72qs4z2.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo5uqoh5.fsf@gnu.org> <3295789C-D737-402B-A750-9C3F552FE85F@traduction-libre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c41da05a4b9f3b9" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="115038"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 03 10:11:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9iX-000Tqc-8L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 10:11:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51332 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9iW-0003J2-7q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:11:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52092) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9hz-0002Aq-Lx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:10:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]:46085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9hy-0004JL-J2; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:10:43 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id g10so7041406lfj.13; Sun, 03 May 2020 01:10:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kCONFBtURc0VM+YurBEaYieNWJtekPYmvEHwCYA0AAA=; b=TO9JlupTrcxGCb2txf4XX0R5qSoBErvMlzE9lPCZL4nCmvqeTZVhinXNKBM2O4p8pZ CX1Ao6W8YDP/Ov72m95RGBCWb6qd+Ahvqe7dke9rFytsyGpbFnLBvWMHN8AR13Xn0aQu a1xij+/3CcXdjmQxS4AVuV+ze4ovyKZ9/RDdshtt1Y1LxAuQNPgxxkJBhcSBGs89cmOC FR4TMwyO6SpVj5IeXCedApSh+sHQR0AI5BnaUWe7uFkdP6UdBZdc1EvPRkvXsLbJnOge UA85SHqdhQlYUYjkv/wywWsHWp4Ve/SgeVpQw5+wMXxIO8KOTPkLmkC62Io1WdYPh0LN byZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kCONFBtURc0VM+YurBEaYieNWJtekPYmvEHwCYA0AAA=; b=Az5sqiCm+6SGXGBj5FnZRPz8MNRSM3NaVV1INX8H6tBirDjDuLy6rTPbsx7inCwE+v RGVApj6Bji4AJCV+nDDzD3vQcYVicbnL85VJlstQp0ap2Q027GQ8FmmLhLjyi+5Iu66z 1iov+F/Jo/nlkqaGj56ii+v+3kFMAYMvM1mkDqI1VY8sAL+0PK9sIezlzAtKtX/bkU77 t69HEpQPs86Y7JG/0mIcxJPwFkkkGArcrRIycc7Ri6XGJ7+FWQgzYjhAo36yB1Vfhv5M Qe0IHqY44mbI0uA/MbAKhuL9Eje3F8X5sw5WbzjTMAeuXO0tJUrm2vZwBIb2um6TVJvt U0Sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ2KMcotBgiCXIK/1l+7+atdSTKsRy+mVIwcKCMLNWgsQF79t7R MZV2bXMD6zjicryvFXAS92LAPE+jqZ6TaNxp560= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLPBC5h4u5AuX6pVse3sFyPmQ8yKubDKYtvl3NWvVLohKrk3jz46s1KaYZsvYcNfuS1r+bv2XdBNUyKwB717kk= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5482:: with SMTP id t2mr6904095lfk.202.1588493440269; Sun, 03 May 2020 01:10:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3295789C-D737-402B-A750-9C3F552FE85F@traduction-libre.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248650 Archived-At: --0000000000003c41da05a4b9f3b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> I think you need boths. Do you think the Ruby documentation I linked is bad? >> It's worse than the ELisp manual, yes. > In terms of visual contrast/cues, it is not. >>> For quite a lot of people, this page http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp_string_functions.html is much simpler to use & learn from than this page https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Strings-and-Chara= cters.html >>> It does not mean that the later page is bad, it is actually more complete, better documented, already grouped in topics... and yet, a lot of people prefer the first page... straight to the point, simple examples. > =E2=80=A2 I can read the page in a reasonable amount of time, > =E2=80=A2 I can figure out what functions do and how to use them > =E2=80=A2 I can quickly imagine new ways of doing things > =E2=80=A2 and I can refer to the manual when I want deeper knowledge > As mentioned above, I think the ergoemacs pages work well because of the way they use visual cues. We don't have many visual cues in the manual. That makes the manual uselessly more difficult to read. Thanks for explaining my example. I find it very interesting/surprising that many people here do not think that way. Our position is probably due to exposure to many different workflows/languages, but I'm guessing here. --0000000000003c41da05a4b9f3b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> I think you need boths. Do you think the Ruby= documentation I linked is bad?
>> It's worse than the ELisp m= anual, yes.
> In terms of visual contrast/cues, it is not.

>= ;>> For quite a lot of people, this page http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp_str= ing_functions.html is much simpler to use & learn from than this pa= ge https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_no= de/elisp/Strings-and-Characters.html
>>> It does not mean t= hat the later page is bad, it is actually more complete, better documented,= already grouped in topics... and yet, a lot of people prefer the first pag= e... straight to the point, simple examples.

> =E2=80=A2 I can re= ad the page in a reasonable amount of time,
> =E2=80=A2 I can figure = out what functions do and how to use them
> =E2=80=A2 I can quickly i= magine new ways of doing things
> =E2=80=A2 and I can refer to the ma= nual when I want deeper knowledge
> As mentioned above, I think the e= rgoemacs pages work well because of the way they use visual cues. We don= 9;t have many visual cues in the manual. That makes the manual uselessly mo= re difficult to read.

Thanks for explaining my example. I find = it very interesting/surprising that many people here do not think that way.= Our position is probably due to exposure to many different workflows/langu= ages,=C2=A0but I'm guessing here.
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