From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 10:24:54 +0200 Message-ID: References: <83368ivmym.fsf@gnu.org> <5f91c6e5-b4af-4478-b221-4ca37f0fb74c@default> <2afdde98-4d71-4847-8ee4-b0eee677baef@default> <20200503080507.GA2467@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b76a2505a4ba2736" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="43404"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 03 10:25:57 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9wi-000BDm-VZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 10:25:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34580 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9wi-0002ug-1j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:25:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54700) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9wB-0002Rn-HH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:25:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]:38529) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV9wA-0008UF-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 04:25:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id l11so7097921lfc.5 for ; Sun, 03 May 2020 01:25:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KuK9U8BZK7VEJYsXzsoPWaA0qeIWqDxb3IJ+ttrV3RE=; b=u0lzQgr3nH2JQkg3GwmCEHAX7lcVd5XHsZd9JfZnqtjeLN+1lyXSt5irp8sBIBPNQy X3jhpHckuhLLC9pMRyBaP8vmMEnwHQ3s0Rb576XIBrNCIHqrrzoSUZn2LEvZ/PcXB2wF ktBmBYC4VItuK3E21/UOsCF7YwB5AWmEH++xO9GS5sh6D/ndtpmYH5ylgIXTyotWvCFL /bJEh4Ot+TDM+Tik/950I+WU0w1X+J93FC2HGbyFzlds/MIDwtKLRvYzIPiPLcd0eLL8 6PmQt0+79j2jTKshktUZqV2obWhdagkYpxLPoBiT29fLuA2+/c3xj6+RIrzoNmzDp2AL v3aA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KuK9U8BZK7VEJYsXzsoPWaA0qeIWqDxb3IJ+ttrV3RE=; b=Hyjw1i1nzYH2eidJgbo25PobTwY7GYtYCL2G+RmUzxEpem2+vWBiqzQ+PR+2IkJtMi 6WWVyKIINTYTCqfFuETh3G1r++fKYSbM8Bj9tmbHDMzIYR2/OIOR/VPaeR+fXi17OvBp ZPt/tk4qNLvFh20+cYvcCF1jmSzVz9QLDj+VLG/Ho4rVSG76RYO2iEXTKMxbwL8V50xU 2kt1PEjQoXhMIO4hYcHcYJ+x6H211EqL3PyLmu1HnM2Ex6Fr7evJ3MS7sXbjjRt2nTvB qOBw+v3kKNJHIeqpysFrGO9i9Po1QCDXU+Rb3m6y3iVi2QgpCi3j+643TiBhFFyBmL46 iqBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYfuectes+BWgvYhBcOwtxDqM55reQ13gXF1l04BxfvxrcG/j2I 4sBfYGjCMSsXu3zzXVeKFMS2qtpd0ToihidTOuv0anyq X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIGA/SqAVDJPmOAH73K9seutFZmYCougnU3xt30G2Ds9D6Rl/YTT3bKMrUrwg+KbsSScz1jWeEfJnVCmpT+KVI= X-Received: by 2002:a19:f719:: with SMTP id z25mr310481lfe.76.1588494320756; Sun, 03 May 2020 01:25:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200503080507.GA2467@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248655 Archived-At: --000000000000b76a2505a4ba2736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> Anyway, you try to focus on the weak points of the arguments. I understand, >> it's a natural defense mechanism. > Here it is again. > Psychologizing your opponent is dangerous, may be insulting and won't > bring the quest forward. Oops, seems I derailed again. Thanks for pointing these out, it helps me notice. I have problems when someone looks to me like putting a lot of efforts into not seeing where we are talking from, and only pointing things from their perspective (all this while, I think, we try to understand theirs). But I do realise now that it's just myself who has an understanding problem: if I truly understood the other person I'd not be surprised. What would work wonders for me is to say something like "I understand your position and why you think it's better but for me it's useless because...". It looks like most of our missunderstandings come from the fact that I expect others to be familiar with a lot of concepts or how a significant portion of the developers in the world work & function. Based on previous messages I discovered that's not the case at all, and it looks like this community is sometimes a bit "unaware" of how things work for a lot of people "outside". I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, I just don't know how to say it. I really don't mean this in a bad way, maybe it's because you know of these other ways but decided the Emacs way is superior and with time you forgot a bit? More specifically I was surprised to have to explain why namespaces have advantages, why tutorials & stackoverflow has a lot of success. From my perspective these are obvious and thus it's hard for me to realise when someone simply needs basic explanations about these. Philippe --000000000000b76a2505a4ba2736 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> Anyway, you try to focus on the weak points of th= e arguments. I understand,
>> it's a natural defense mechanism= .

> Here it is again.

> Psychologizing your opponent is= dangerous, may be insulting and won't
> bring the quest forward.=

Oops, seems I derailed again. Thanks for pointing these out, i= t helps me notice.

I have problems when someone looks to me like put= ting a lot of efforts into not seeing where we are talking from,=C2=A0and o= nly pointing things from their=C2=A0perspective (all this while, I think, w= e=C2=A0try to understand theirs). But I do realise now that it's just m= yself who has an understanding problem: if I truly understood the other per= son I'd not be surprised. What would work wonders for me is to say some= thing like "I understand your position and why you think it's bett= er but for me it's useless because...".

It looks like most = of our=C2=A0missunderstandings come from the fact that I expect others to b= e familiar with a lot of concepts or how a significant portion of the devel= opers in the world work & function. Based on previous messages I discov= ered that's not the case at all, and it looks like this community is so= metimes a bit "unaware" of how things work for a lot of people &q= uot;outside". I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, I just don't= know how to say it. I really don't mean this in a bad way, maybe it= 9;s because you know of these other ways but decided the Emacs way is super= ior and with time you forgot a bit? More specifically I was surprised to ha= ve to explain why namespaces have advantages, why tutorials & stackover= flow has a lot of success. From my perspective these are obvious and thus i= t's hard for me to realise when someone simply needs basic explanations= about these.

Philippe
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