>
> > If I take that entry manual and then toggle read only and then "M-x
> keep-lines -- function" I end up with:
> >
> >  -- Function: assoc key alist &optional testfn
> >  -- Function: rassoc value alist
> >  -- Function: assq key alist
> >  -- Function: alist-get key alist &optional default remove testfn
> >  -- Function: rassq value alist
> >  -- Function: assoc-default key alist &optional test default
> >  -- Function: copy-alist alist
> >  -- Function: assq-delete-all key alist
> >  -- Function: assoc-delete-all key alist
> >  -- Function: rassq-delete-all value alist
> >
> > That's what I would like to get out of the manual easily.
>
> I fail to see how will the above list be useful, if you know nothing
> about the function's name.  E.g., a newbie that has no previous Lisp
> baggage will never be able to guess that assq should have anything to
> do with association lists.  They will need the text keep-lines removes.
>

But I'm not a newbie! I don't use Emacs lisp enough to remember all the
details all the time, but I know what I'm looking for when I see it.



> So maybe you should make your argument more concrete by saying what
> you did know in this case.  My proposal to use Info-index was based on
> the assumption that you knew nothing except that the function was
> about alists.  In another message you said that you actually knew the
> function will include "copy" and "alist" somewhere in its name, so I
> suggested a different command that is better for that use case.
>

Yes, there is a lot of different use cases. Sorry for that.



> IOW, for each use case there's the best tool, and there are others
> which are good, but not the best.  For example, even if you did go to
> the above manual section, why would you need to generate the list of
> functions?  "C-s copy" finds copy-alist as the first hit.  So even
> being presented with a relatively long (290 lines) section in the
> manual, finding what you want in that section is a matter of seconds.
> I fail to see the problem.
>

That's for the case where you search for "copy", yes. That does not cover
the "overview" aspect.



> > Over 95% of my documentation search is just that (quickly looking at a
> list of functions). I'm fluent in many
> > languages already, I don't need a regexp (or whatever) introduction with
> detailed explanations. I just want to
> > find how to do a regexp match and extract the results. When I fall on
> >
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Regexp-Search.html
> it takes way too much
> > reading to find `string-match`, and this page doesn't even mention
> `match-string`! That means I have to do
> > another search and find
> >
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Simple-Match-Data.html.
> I'm sure that if you
> > put yourself in my shoes you'd be able to understand my frustration.
>
> I cannot put myself in your shoes unless you describe the situation
> more completely.  Specifically, what _did_ you know about string-match
> and match-string, and which topics relevant to these would be in your
> opinion relevant for looking up those functions?  Then we could
> continue having a useful discussion, one where the results are that we
> improve Emacs, including in ways other than those you thought about.
>
> E.g., based on what _I_ have in mind in the above situation, I'd first
> try "i regexp TAB" in the ELisp manual, see nothing pertinent, then
> try "match TAB", and voila! I see match-data and match-string.
>

I'm not sure it'd be useful. I gave plenty of examples and at this point
either my way of functionning is broken or you simply never function like I
do so you don't see the problem.



> > My point is that "C-h d alist" is not sufficient to find assq or assoc,
> thus while a useful tool it's not very
> > efficient.
>
> You don't know me very well, do you?  Try "C-h d alist" in a recent
> development snapshot, and I think you will see those functions there.
> I fixed that within 5 minutes of your saying that those functions
> couldn't be found by "C-h d".
>

So, my point *was* valid two days ago. How many other topics of Emacs are
still affected tho?



> > Maybe I'm asking for too much, or maybe my way of functionning is
> "wrong" in the Emacs Lisp world. I'm
> > curious, please tell me more about how you function, maybe Emacs Lisp is
> your most used language so you
> > know it all by heart? How often do you popup the manual, and how often
> do you use "C-h f"?
>
> I think by now you should already know the answer.  I have the ELisp
> manual open in a dedicated frame at all times, and I consult it all
> the time.  I use "C-h f" only if I think I know the function's name
> quite accurately, and the same with "C-h v" and variables.
>

I'll try this for a while and see how it goes.

Philippe