From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:39:48 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li> <87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li> <87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li> <83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org> <20200429101755.GF24737@tuxteam.de> <838sicw4do.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhaqu89z.fsf@gnu.org> <83sggiu2p9.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e6835d05a4a8c28f" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="111499"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 13:40:53 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqVp-000Svf-1S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 13:40:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41758 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqVo-00049A-4J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 07:40:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46866) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqVI-0003ek-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 07:40:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqVH-0003XF-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 07:40:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]:36736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqVF-0003RO-2y; Sat, 02 May 2020 07:40:17 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id w14so5810219lfk.3; Sat, 02 May 2020 04:40:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XvTspvmHVQMLtkiU66rxgad/7nod6nKQhtE2l0xlxgM=; b=ez5osiQ00uycAG2gl+4lBLujeUNNymw39tZvjkhsxw1Ccqk+prsEqEtvKBLTZGuuGD Yf3GL8dkDfYNrEJXq3qhDmx1c+aB6I9bejKnTLm1/tfNTdYFm8IsuEYE4l/MckDkNGFp QPrAaf+xg83hhfqAFzcBJNln4MnSYo8uQgcH5JjT08vlnX7xKp1hsSVCTKvbxLY14Uru QLlYfrud6DsaG8whwyln2jw7P4AnplpPFbgwjq1G9LHM8vfHZQXeE4EGyxdVBGI0w/61 71lGO4LZ71HX9qIo6P5C+Q7OBmaKvnuI7TEFSSKoapVEsTxF0SafspkWYRofszvTB9wm AD6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XvTspvmHVQMLtkiU66rxgad/7nod6nKQhtE2l0xlxgM=; b=Mtj2mmuKNAlaL9cTyeBAPA5k2t8ZpQPBymd7Wt/SZ+NV5D25Km/YMFFP4QkR+8mv9c 5QcuWYy0parVOzEOJeFWmQr+0CuWHe6LMgTMQtWFiqzvizv1KyHcQRmUwdaW6r5nty45 Pyl0urkrokdjXttqjdUeLxCpW/Ytm77mdi2qMe0CB4WRTcxGEb3UAtPvMI8djInC1gdm 4/acHstKO4ZpR12Y8EWVRWfG7vIsXq49Clko49lYWYaFhO2eXPz+siPF5QN1eg/szn3o u7ODgYcVDT1pMxgn/vPgdmdDYnRkQ8BIRkMLoCkXzbnIjdzhbW73S5I4Pfy9FCPZBcbW lP/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub4dpOOTcatmUIr39MiVzr/DoTlplsSMsi9qh4OGEnCLLKer06b aHUzmUQPoODPEXMkwL/L/kU3K7CucS80DJJyvGts0EGugcs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLNnyrIDEnRCrjskWP5y8RJdQyPDIQBRIwqGu7REWvYkkLXEIfofYO0s8JtqXlZS+VTtgFLQzxEFnC3z7NGUAs= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4832:: with SMTP id 18mr5463780lft.162.1588419614899; Sat, 02 May 2020 04:40:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12a.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248407 Archived-At: --000000000000e6835d05a4a8c28f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't it be much > easier if the language itself was self-documenting? > > Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition. And you > will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow > accustomed to. Imagine if I told you the French language should now > also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're > just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you > have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too. > Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones. But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even adding a new-style API is too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably live outside of Emacs in MELPA. I'm not sure I like this simplification, but there seem to be two communities of Emacs users, the "traditional" one and the "github" one. Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it seems that both communities have trouble understanding how the other community function. It's been several time now that the "github community" proposed changes that looked "evident improvements" to them but got hit by a wall of incomprehension/complexity (I'm not saying this proposal is one of them, but what comes often is "why not gitlab? how come s.el is not in Emacs core?", etc). I'm not sure if there is a way forward on this, it just is that way. I hope that in the future we can understand each others better and find good compromises quicker, without all the noise. Kind regards, Philippe --000000000000e6835d05a4a8c28f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Interesting point. I think that could work, but wou= ldn't it be much easier if the language itself was self-documenting?
Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition.=C2=A0 And you=
will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow
accustomed to.=C2=A0 Imagine if I told you the French language should now also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you<= br> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too.
=
Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use t= he old ones.

But yeah, I'm coming to the c= onclusion that even adding a new-style API is too disruptive. If it happens= It'll probably live outside of Emacs in MELPA.

I'm not sure I like this simplification, but there seem to be two com= munities of Emacs users, the "traditional" one and the "gith= ub" one. Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it s= eems that both communities have trouble understanding how the other communi= ty function.

It's been several time now that the "github co= mmunity" proposed changes that looked "evident improvements"= to them but got hit by a wall of incomprehension/complexity (I'm not s= aying this proposal is one of them, but what comes often is "why not g= itlab? how come s.el is not in Emacs core?", etc). I'm not sure if= there is a way forward on this, it just is that way. I hope that in the fu= ture we can understand each others better and find good compromises quicker= , without all the noise.

Kind regards,
Philippe=
--000000000000e6835d05a4a8c28f--