From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:47:48 +0200 Message-ID: References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="61225"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 05 16:51:42 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyv7-000FoL-MY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 16:51:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57290 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyv6-0006IR-PA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:51:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyrq-0002B6-UJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:48:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::230]:46043) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyrp-0006ky-B9; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:48:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id h4so1887963ljg.12; Tue, 05 May 2020 07:48:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AHKem3gqxdQlKW13Ip1ows/FVhWx4ZOis2RvA5An9qE=; b=ShQCz3QV6SsHLLr8japOKFBpestUua6nkfyVX9kIEpZVdOyObFETc6Kl+FN4t4/6X/ b+CN0wlO1qVnH0yFVbDxCGIu0AVcvKTPnkOThhMc4ZNkZwJLkGpESu21sxIPzj6IWGu6 stVHdBQT4TXzrkVxK/JMPs9jyOJEJSivTTXjmUGRHqdAorwtHn48Tcvh62vpSkWzvVU5 FIb15PKGvg4YGfcGxiJB8awWV2JljcpihmEtqB1GfXP48NBRkvYOjNpE4KBxeS45LebE yjGTTaEStQdZYYUMkQpsvOeE7Nf6dBFFj77w2b/4DT/FMRExlqQfRrR0deHr6UJSkViJ hrcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AHKem3gqxdQlKW13Ip1ows/FVhWx4ZOis2RvA5An9qE=; b=eZv0CcWw/dogvRK3hwyn4IQ8/H09/GxJ74i2B2LahQmoks6vIuDmOvmgBCWKlobHKf OeLiwXu2c9vnge+PeYdJiuEnBDJ2A3SDfUS4sKJq+1AIqqkA6zERscb00aSE/79uh6If E0dEN5yqN9QCqbw8vb0Ed4xJgLC+43o2MjIp+aiulis1TBdRc0RdKQ7tNdP9PW1ggRbS XJWSGYxoje2p1w8DqHYobSF2LPt/Vq6gYL19rrcub0h/VpLi5qZj6rESK/q5MFf+hTKC Krs7bKwOAYqxL+mbGynTnxc3N+5XCuIgOwmSrowT/i0BCFwXRoCTXb5fll1uSbqHZaiM yw/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua+6lGXlbqUes+8Zfyyf1N6kNxCK+wpKSI2WQ9kcc3AwMbJ3iru snStEBhr7RprFexffIYqkwjZrCx+ZJ4uNFYEjH0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL6XswTB9NHTDdcJekexvWZhf1ZOqayKqyzpxfQK3ANXls2yFtISz1Lofbs0Q/gkJHx0RoeHbbBNAMjwq+wN6Q= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7e04:: with SMTP id z4mr2138650ljc.50.1588690094786; Tue, 05 May 2020 07:48:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::230; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x230.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248997 Archived-At: > > multibyte-string-p -> multibyte-string-p > > string-to-multibyte -> multibyte-from-string > > string-as-multibyte -> multibyte-from-string-unsafe > > set-buffer-multibyte -> buffer-set-multibyte > > multibyte-char-to-unibyte -> multibyte-char-to-unibyte > > [1] > > Do you know what this would make to fine completion list > I gave you? It would make it suck. So you, the "bit of an > extremist" who "is annoyed by a little noise", are prepared to > introduce an unimaginable amount of it into my and other's > workflows at the slightest difficulty and resistance to read > a fine manual. I like Emacs because it respects people's > established workflows, and allows for programmers > to build on it, so they can use whatever workflow they > prefer. I think I already acknowledged that point in https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg00508.html Which is why I don't think any of my renames proposal will be accepted. Maybe one or two but so far I haven't found a single example where everyone agreed. In the multibyte example I was just illustrating how I think about things. > Unfortunately, you're finding it a bit hard to support > your -- absolutely legitimate, mind you -- ruby-esque > ways. But you should be working to have proper > namespacing so you can work with a magnar-string.el > or ruby-regexp.el library the way you feel more > confortable. That takes work, yes, but at least it's a > win-win, not a lose-lose. If proper namespacing takes a lot > of work, then work on a powerful completion tool. I can > help you with that. You're French, right? Imagine if > Google decided they'd to the complete works of Raymond > Roussell from French to modern, easy-to-search, French. Actually I'm swiss, from the french speaking part of Switzerland. Funnily enough we think we speak a better french than the frenchs themselves, given we say the more logical "seventy-five" instead of "sixty-fifteen" like they do. Maybe that's why I think I know better how to name things than the actual authors :-) Anyway, at this point I'll make a "concrete proposal" like I was asked, something very simple and hopefully very uncontroversial, but I think the bikeshedding can stop. We obviously disagree how APIs should be designed. Basically I focus more on the advantages of putting the discoverability/consistency inside the language itself instead of its tools, while you focus more on how disruptive this approch will be and how we could still get what I want with new tools instead of the language. I thought we had a golden opportunity to put s.el inside Emacs: - The author is willing. - The number of contributors is small, most of them already signed the papers including the author. - A lot of "github" Emacs users would see this as a good sign. But I realise now that even if this was done, what would likely happen is that s.el get stale because adding/modifying it is not as simple & smooth as doing so on other platforms, and a new s.el will appear and we can repeat what happened these past days in a few years. On the topic of s.el inclusion here are my conclusions (please correct me if they are wrong): - I can try to suggest a few aliases, and maybe one or two will be accepted, but certainly not a lot. - I can try to suggest a few new functions, and maybe one or two will be accepted. - Whatever is introduced is likely to be "Emacsified" as not to look too much like clojure. - I can notify the author of s.el that only a tiny subset of s.el (if any) is likely to be imported, but he should know he's very welcome to put s.el on ELPA. Kind regards, Philippe