From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Nikita Mogilevsky Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 11:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: References: <4XvMn7QQudwuCq-3cSOnqK_gBoHnmblv2--PKi2oupbCsZwaxxrzA2Chwb6LEzzg1TYjAJNboC8lwPgw8VA5IhYUBs-Jly9HfTqPtsgZUHg=@protonmail.com> <01502186-69cb-86fb-612e-868068e7a998@yandex.ru> <6e2c9c07-31c4-38eb-c679-7e680f9f02ed@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019958b05a4febcc7" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="38631"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 06 20:15:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWOZs-0009tr-Qx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 20:15:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36368 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWOZr-0006WC-Td for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 14:15:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57220) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWOYx-0005bx-4Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 14:14:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]:45033) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWOYv-0007rk-TF; Wed, 06 May 2020 14:14:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id o8so334908ybc.11; Wed, 06 May 2020 11:14:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3LK4gCmoD2rSBtpnkF9iYcWMHn4HumqvRQeu1bkD0o0=; b=sh9+/I9L9+3SYICQWumVpOXmAnZAtYj8sraWdP+I2ZthNweeD2PwPs99RSPCO4zc32 1hagyr0TtOjcMFjGLzacacHrlkqmadfJlvT05P/zoiwbrhyW9VPXLE8nncCOXa0vcFO5 sOsA5D2dy3lBca8NDy2jsMjpij7AuYuBH9L6RXrPfBsWC46qkhQtq7l9rQ2jD5gBJAHq 4Ozxl4OTrVq9Y8f6Co3QFHX0GB0LNBQ7UCC9K4AU2RNMBrjkCypxIgAis4TCUr5Wni/X Wo3nvqaK4hX6ueJ+ttDsH7U2xTlsLAwrQm9aevc7xdHv0ntgodL3vO/1ro7MeiewLXc6 Be+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3LK4gCmoD2rSBtpnkF9iYcWMHn4HumqvRQeu1bkD0o0=; b=SIUiaa51RYONEMPTlmntXnOt+7wrlGqGUvt9g8boEyUXLhNWbt06YSzarcoNaPo+/y 4D1RI5bCV5gnENqN8e2OW0wWTi3hTePQEiYyYw5iLjjemhieUgatEyuwDBkEP3vKOtpH EDfvfD2yd4wCDpESMw/lx+BUqPKigLARZqx4C/Fz9+GKuH23y1XOngy2Sl3djkLxDWML 6jk/1aPQJTNoTPDpfO/lc0IyOJ7gln3U3GhObD+UR5SHOxgE9az26tNEtPH2BhHYmviZ 4vCQ2h3EqiyuyYIQ9wJBT7x3fzJSE5djT8dpN/UmA6aNoWMML91WehMKeqaBTGu/AyKt x1dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubWy1RPtYU7PnBayMI6lfHXyjlkEGpnBczRT0e1WkZxoV2HnX+0 hZoR/bZxnmyK0QHhLfq1NAQawf+AkuRXz6Mv/OmPDw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIAoOemygtLbB1YtF424yTk/As77ypSOcSNdyMwz2iddYxeVZaMHdEzr9HuvG8uvYdYWLX02OZ8tz5ISJxLwdM= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d413:: with SMTP id m19mr15546827ybf.250.1588788867993; Wed, 06 May 2020 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35; envelope-from=nikitamog@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb35.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249108 Archived-At: --00000000000019958b05a4febcc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, folks. I'd like to throw my two cents in as a relatively new user. I've been using emacs for org-mode, coding, and irc on and off for a few years. The display interface: There is already a thread about emacs' square appearance, but many features of emacs would benefit from looking modernized. I agree with RMS that emacs will need some reimagined graphics library implementation to make that possible. Customize: This feature is conceptually simple but I found it almost hostile to interact with. Between, states and unintuitive input fields. I found it hard to understand what many functions and variables were meant to do or represent. The documentation for these values showed elisp, so I quickly transitioned away from customize. I don't know what I would improve here but I think that many new users are guided to this feature and I don't recommend them to play with it from personal experiences. How should we poll new users and their initial interactions with emacs? Would a setup wizard be helpful for common bindings like modern kill-yank equivalents? While the philosophy funnels towards abandoning mouse cursors and buttons what would be intuitive features for transitioning from that kind of behavior? On Tue, May 5, 2020, 21:47 Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > It is just that sometimes, in everyday speech we don't always use > > official, full, long names for stuff > > Since "free software" is only two charactes longer than "open source", > how about making the effort to acquire that habit? It will help our > cause, and once you learn the habit, you will hardly mind those extra > characters. > > > say Linux even when we mean GNU/Linux, just as we don't always say > > Microsoft Windows but just Windows, or Apple OSX but just OSX etc. > > They are similar in being shortenings, but there is a crucial difference. > > Saying just "Windows" does not lead to forgetting that it comes from > Microsoft. > Saying just "OSX" does not lead to forgetting that it comes from Apple. > There is no reason to make an effort to avoid those shortenings. > > But saying just "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux" misrepresents who > developed it. That hampers what the GNU Project can achieve. So how > about making the effort to avoid that particular shortening? > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > > --00000000000019958b05a4febcc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, folks. I'd like to throw my two cents in as a = relatively new user. I've been using emacs for org-mode, coding, and ir= c on and off for a few years.

= The display interface:
There is already a thread abo= ut emacs' square appearance, but many features of emacs would benefit f= rom looking modernized. I agree with RMS that emacs will need some reimagin= ed graphics library implementation to make that possible.

Customize:
This fe= ature is conceptually simple but I found it almost hostile to interact with= . Between, states and unintuitive input fields. I found it hard to understa= nd what many functions and variables were meant to do or represent. The doc= umentation for these values showed elisp, so I quickly transitioned away fr= om customize. I don't know what I would improve here but I think that m= any new users are guided to this feature and I don't recommend them to = play with it from personal experiences.

How should we poll new users and their initial interactions= with emacs? Would a setup wizard be helpful for common bindings like moder= n kill-yank equivalents? While the philosophy funnels towards abandoning mo= use cursors and buttons what would be intuitive features for transitioning = from that kind of behavior?

On Tue, May 5, 2020, 21:47 Richard Stallma= n <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email= : please consider=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
=C2=A0 > It is just that sometimes, in everyday speech we don't alwa= ys use
=C2=A0 > official, full, long names for stuff

Since "free software" is only two charactes longer than "ope= n source",
how about making the effort to acquire that habit?=C2=A0 It will help our cause, and once you learn the habit, you will hardly mind those extra
characters.

=C2=A0 > say Linux even when we mean GNU/Linux, just as we don't alw= ays say
=C2=A0 > Microsoft Windows but just Windows, or Apple OSX but just OSX e= tc.

They are similar in being shortenings, but there is a crucial difference.
Saying just "Windows" does not lead to forgetting that it comes f= rom Microsoft.
Saying just "OSX" does not lead to forgetting that it comes from = Apple.
There is no reason to make an effort to avoid those shortenings.

But saying just "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux" misrepre= sents who
developed it.=C2=A0 That hampers what the GNU Project can achieve.=C2=A0 So= how
about making the effort to avoid that particular shortening?

--
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)=



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