From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 08:58:31 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201012062916.GB2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30218"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 09:00:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRroy-0007mH-GJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 09:00:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54938 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRrox-0006oD-IP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 03:00:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRrnD-0005G5-Fs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 02:58:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::434]:42194) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRrnA-0005D2-AL; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 02:58:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id e18so17801498wrw.9; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:58:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=skn9JqAEV1cjayU+j3aFNbpopRmt6r+FIUuIaAKPSws=; b=HnY4+cTuEi8Yxhuczkinla3/QwDVZ2+DyxJvnTlkMPanepJkS11XyDTKAi1GGFYZ8s 0caihG5LQqiGghKMadNf9kvcmf63MJkAYNya2q0a1a9lLzTdufE0Yq05x0lXEq7gZObE OYKP8F835f4qJPT0hYTm5ZfEb6Wa0y5urVgzXUDFFLfSDYFOj5+G569yFl7hMpoMYH/Z F1jyS3+odFd9T4d2qmWp2ksaf++oBoTpQJFf4bn4C0p5XSfiRjti3pwH79aLGWi+bik3 oqXS1KiuEPiLYaMz46RbyhydD1Zu0IHK9ABNTDxm8RJQWlOv9SuFI3nS+7qYp8nsqWmg I3lQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=skn9JqAEV1cjayU+j3aFNbpopRmt6r+FIUuIaAKPSws=; b=Uy5OnxAWEKGSpQK4esd8NuDhH2mb3YLedffpQIqaxQ3NckIHGuc8GoKOPoTjQJzBT5 GA2FE0nTL7ExQky3qWNh8QgeyPAGfnvxMlte7/nqYdzli/W7XSXfRVyZyokhqmXN+fKX y5GJX1vjJQLxLzvtxLr7gqj0sHfOFXuDBp2+notkMRkvCLigRww8AaJmFRXtmTTSvAtE hbTHz2j1GTZkVAnop/4zU2IetHIfhhnruo8sH7veSlzvdI9URLzdIBt3DRNTDNYOr/0g 1t61erEDowhONVk7MTa1dvjQM4IpsdJXvVcevitp+9ipNEq49yiLXGVCbdIXOWRsKXo4 jpUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vSdVqd6+cUJqT8I3pgxduVJt1rM2oBkucX+OyxTg6X7TSiH3y v4TdgUl4jBefTOquSVB3/AJpzkNCOLjDhH8Xqqg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3jhBAHdYb4cpGd5xkw+lUAuyH1VJOSkQSFh4tAPX8r59S0fPMEpfBeaNcnvCxIdfNCgmVZslX96i7EY0fPWA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:498a:: with SMTP id r10mr28596167wrq.106.1602485922425; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:58:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201012062916.GB2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::434; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x434.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257448 Archived-At: > Tell me examples of popular usage that you refer to? Downloading packages from Melpa every day. Or even using Doom or Spacemacs (both activate the Melpa repository afaict, through Straight in the case of Doom). > Free form gives enough possibility for any user to explain anything > they wish. But do they wish to? Imagine a poll for a presidential election, where John Doe and Richard Miles are the frontrunners. Now let's say that a pollster frames its question like this: "Who do you intend to vote for? - John Doe - Other (please specify)" What would you think of the data resulting from such a poll? > > > If anything, wouldn't we want to get an idea how many Emacs users > > currently use a non-free package repository? > > I am not sure if there is any non-free package repository for > Emacs. > > MELPA is fetching most packages from the Microsoft Github, and Github > dictates free licenses for any public repository, most of them are > free software. For me is hard to find particular example that uses non > free software. Okay... > Above paragraph refers to MELPA, that could wrap non free software in > the free software packages. I can then imagine links in packages pointing > to non free software, that is what was meant with recommendation. It > does not refer to questions in the opinion poll. Okay. > GNU project with promotion of free software is not biased as that > would mean that it is influenced in an unfair way. The GNU project is not biased. But the proposed amended survey would be, similar to the hypothetical presidential poll above. > > GNU project is influenced in a fair way and thus should be promoting > and supporting free software and helping users of proprietary software > to understand what is free software and freedom in computing. > > The word propaganda you maybe used in a negative connotation, but the > word itself means promoting information to spread some cause. Who is > not interested, would not read it. The point of propaganda that some > will get interested, so propaganda gives results for those who are. Who is not interested might also leave the survey and skew the data. Advertisement campaigns disguised as surveys are legion. > > But, for example, wouldn't something like below be both short and > > explicit enough? > > > > "- Melpa (Note: Emacs and the GNU project DO NOT ENDORSE package > > repositories which encourage non-free software, see > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/)" > > I do not think that it is necessary for survey from GNU Emacs to ask > if people are using Melpa or whatever other software > repository. > > Reason for that is that it is obvious that people do, people ARE using > MELPA and Marmalade software repositories; Okay, that is a valid point (although I would be interested to know if people still use Marmalade). But then we might as well drop the repository question altogether. > AND more important reason > not to ask is that information about usage of those repositories, > likes, number of contributors, it is already available on the > Microsoft Github "Insights" link on the MELPA page. There is no point > in asking users what is already obvious. There are stars or likes on > Github. This data might have its own selection bias.