From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 05:32:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: <30addebe-999b-c1cc-a8d8-27aba3fac566@gmx.com> <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a25f4005b170f315" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13076"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Adrien Brochard , bugs@gnu.support, Vasilij Schneidermann To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 05:33:30 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRoaY-0003I3-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 05:33:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36914 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRoaX-0001Jq-1h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:33:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55716) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRoZt-0000sw-JM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:32:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::335]:50913) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRoZr-00013q-Tf; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:32:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id 13so15922358wmf.0; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:32:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=PxN8WzfnOeZO0kPIx7lt2u9L5om6RVpG49wpBcpiFcM=; b=M1/Opr+ifSzRpCvIIwiJB0MCIA/AQ8Z059+idyy9u4dpQ5JL8LEJyub8EmHYelrYx+ hoCDJRKRA9uFZ8WglccqElkq35ggdsv7RDgxNw9me7w7ISGkMhRIovmabmQgVs9Pjsnr 8+k1s3e1vMvY9eFvZKNhxyvDOIWkc0LTlrnNn0Wl328ZDE7FmEnFPdrZyB6e8UqXjsKd LdBhrJqB3/NHawjMNhiH8PE/ycbLhzvDLmy8heWMyjdXHVVjkTp0bDjO57dS0FM0pa7i l5Iw3bdyfv04jRxVwZN7Z6js/cd2zqJWtMtaIrMFKffosT6F1Y/+B6KlWZk97DD/oiX7 D6oQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PxN8WzfnOeZO0kPIx7lt2u9L5om6RVpG49wpBcpiFcM=; b=EIeHu6JdXps4nwWI2+B4OTMCIngsGXFtt7pIg1ZfQd0vtkiPvPIn8bEAHnIyw2fluM HwuIVno05JpWzLA8zqoXeqVCQumUPS8F+y5ZO64+lwqKDc5ksei5N09lX4A96OF3I0N1 k0/JqgQB332oYFh0GFciKZkPy58aZgIzRHBMv1ABPxAti6LT9wT+BtHraqYGYRb7wBoZ 2TxGq2VPef9tcJTOQBxrvDNN5LgHqMbxA1ONRHw3Xahcwt/6DOs1cdppuZB6XbVTjqFX BZXdOO0Kb86cQxATmhe3U5Xn2jQIO9pIPJcKGpBOI+WkfZTkwK16ibALcNwbHef2+qZO VY2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530BsMKVXXJlrhZAKJcwvIHNnGPPb2IigRDngw6DN+wE7lCGXq+a phR4r33GFsQrWteJ9nlGYN0sJVl5yp1YH8rv66WI95wkf6I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyNYb3aEjotTr8DSXJqMSFfCEzi6A0YjvUWNyO7wBnUWR39qeXWCDBwMp2Up6m2TkSinBXPNDQy+8iwjnmQmjw= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:e1d7:: with SMTP id y206mr8754106wmg.48.1602473565510; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:32:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::335; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x335.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257440 Archived-At: --000000000000a25f4005b170f315 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Even if it contained non-free software, this is beside the point. What > > use is a survey if it doesn't strive to accurately capture the status > > quo and instead basks in ideological purity? > > That's not a fair description of what we are doing, so it is a misled > criticism. Just as a reminder, here is what the email starter suggested: > a survey for Emacs users to better grasp the diversity and various usages out there There is nothing about taking practical decisions or encouraging free software (or anything) there. And I would be worried about selection bias in a survey which voluntarily omits the most popular options from the lists of choices: how many people would choose not to complete the survey of they feel that the questions are biased? Would it be acceptable to put all major package repos in the list, with a warning saying that melpa is not a free software repository? The same warning could be used when mentioning windows, non-free IDEs, etc. --000000000000a25f4005b170f315 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 > Even if it contained non-free software, this is beside th= e point.=C2=A0 What
=C2=A0 > use is a survey if it doesn't strive to accurately capture = the status
=C2=A0 > quo and instead basks in ideological purity?

That's not a fair description of what we are doing, so it is a misled criticism.=C2=A0

Just as a reminder, here is what the email starter suggested:<= /div>

> a survey for Emacs = users to better grasp the diversity and various usages out there
<= div dir=3D"auto">
There is nothing about taking = practical decisions or encouraging free software (or anything) there.=C2=A0=

And I would be worried = about selection bias in a survey which voluntarily omits the most popular o= ptions from the lists of choices: how many people would choose not to compl= ete the survey of they feel that the questions are biased?=C2=A0

Would it be acceptable to put all = major package repos in the list, with a warning saying that melpa is not a = free software repository? The same warning could be used when mentioning wi= ndows, non-free IDEs, etc.=C2=A0


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