From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 06:50:06 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016213312.603595fe@argon> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12763"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: mve1@runbox.com, Dmitry Gutov , Jean Louis , emacs-devel To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 17 06:51:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTeBx-0003Cw-13 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 06:51:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46798 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTeBw-0005rJ-37 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 00:51:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46324) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTeAh-0005FH-BM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 00:50:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]:41892) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTeAd-0005JO-T9; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 00:50:22 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id x20so3656977ybs.8; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:50:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A9lsGRxftYx4auPtcSkLYltUXRwqth7WFWZpsLPo29E=; b=JFvM0OL6fIqsq3bNJYD64xyWUePBZuUEepbCaDivS7KwQt1DOosYOtq+PIPugrDflw XIr/HvEBhSpOGdP/6HbemoFPVXvW/rsW44YxfoMa+1ZwnEkHppusJe+E1aM69oreJ3Sl iGlnIZ8bWarL0YTlGeztB1iDA1o1QjWTlcWYpTgzY9PBo6qC41hFGVUb2vbo95ze82RI xo1sKD9S/iWFIVc3jV9IV4iQZyDXkB7d77WZ7790t2OLymlTDRkd9O5XeOd2e7QpL2Cm XKOC2CUknvaaDsfTMy+8Th01JCMTUECil5GDtH03QWzvMbAl6JLbQ2JZJXRnr87aFcLl BWUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A9lsGRxftYx4auPtcSkLYltUXRwqth7WFWZpsLPo29E=; b=K/VwILtRY/DjvvXjk0NSkf74jOusDPh2PDCDDBC2CCIQP8uVTzywdvmYclpt0dF9UK GrR8ALPDajIz6AMwUdPk1UJilSilWx275QLN8uckpLqsoTILpCErRV6CVe1iQd/g4HpZ LwX+Ghi/FN/biy/Zp0PcPctgH96WJ8+kCm8Ia7bmshnQ9MwvLPfWl0abOEagnKMiMfH0 x7WFLYN3tszfhKI1PUBlS//KlQC/PDi5gsPyDFoQQxVbOjZdd5Su8BrmyE0czErMIxJd QOL1Jax1MuqlQmr/l8JGnjku3zdh7ufzBZJrqTXQyWLVtO6s+sXpbDurCHnsQbmer2Si 4D1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532t/UTSb7WJubCFqZUR5yK6OcE5I2AG8QBJtGFaUko+Xo4v4Qn9 mixfRb5MncJGENYWc3V2bFxNbXpBorREAlQOWWiNg1ilBnY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwj8lte2Gn8Yfg1aD3O1Ei/DOhD350Br0meBaoOJlZJDIqCo8R7K0moYbfezxe8BehZv2rqWMwcy/yGg605G4E= X-Received: by 2002:a25:842:: with SMTP id 63mr8904090ybi.311.1602910218112; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:50:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257906 Archived-At: Le sam. 17 oct. 2020 =C3=A0 06:21, Richard Stallman a =C3=A9c= rit : > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > We could turn this argument around and ask why the developers who > > > maintain MELPA don't remove `2-3' packages that promote non-free > > > software. > > > I sincerely hope it doesn't happen. Those packages might rely on > > non-free software, but they are still packages that some users find > > valuable or even vital, and that they would want to find somewhere > > else if not available on Melpa. Removing them from Melpa would only > > move the "problem". > > I think you have picked up your values (your basis of judging what is > good or bad) from what most people think, and that you took for granted > we have the same values. But we don't. > The goal of the GNU Project is not simply "to help users." It is to > help users _escape from nonfree software_ (des logiciels pas libres), and > ultimately to build a world where all software is free. I gave my reasons above. It's not just about "helping users", it's about helping them move more of their activities to the free world. Those packages (helm-lastpass, lastpass) are helping users who already use lastpass at the moment do exactly that. > Nonfree > software is an injustice -- nonfree software subjugates users. > Our goal is to _eradicate it_. Again, the same question: by arranging for links to such software to be removed everywhere? Or by offering free alternatives? Incidentally, I see a lot of effort so far discussing how evil helm-lastpass and lastpass are, and how to get them moved to obscure parts of the internet. What I don't see is efforts discussing free alternatives. As far as I know the only free competitor for lastpass is bitwarden, why is nobody talking about developing an emacs interface to bitwarden and educating lastpass users about it? Isn't _that_ what the GNU project is about, rather than making it as hard as possible to find the software we don't like? > You, thinking based on your values, seem to consider that a good > thing. You draw the conclusion that it would be unfortunate if Melpa > deleted the Lisp package which refers to that nonfree program. > > We, based on the values we have followed since the 1980s say that it > is bad that someone is using a nonfree program, that we wish the > nonfree program did not exist, and that we hope someone will liberate > its users soon by developing a free replacement for it. We would > be very glad if Melpa deleted that Lisp package. Me too I guess, once and not before the free replacement exists. As long as it doesn't, it means that the aforementioned users will be trapped in the non-free ecosystem because they can't use their password manager in Emacs (or IceCat). How is that helping the cause of free software? > We tend to expect that people joining in GNU Project discussion lists > are familiar with the basic ideas and values of the GNU Project. But > this is not always the case. It would be good if we could recognize > this sooner and educate people about the basic ideas of the GNU > Project sooner. I am familiar with the ideas and values of the GNU Project, and to a large extent I agree with them. My points of disagreement lie in implementation details and priorities. Framing those disagreements as a lack of education is demeaning.