From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Justin Burkett Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 14:33:57 -0500 Message-ID: References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <87le84oqbd.fsf@yahoo.com> <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0hridvr.fsf@posteo.net> <5dd3d04c-c0eb-43fe-b7c2-957f80261ea3@gutov.dev> <87eddqiw84.fsf@posteo.net> <32071337-c91d-46ad-bb9b-10b8d0c83965@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32756"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Philip Kaludercic , Po Lu , Jeremy Bryant , Emacs Devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 05 20:36:36 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rX4lf-0008Gt-Um for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 20:36:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rX4jS-00030Q-Ly; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 14:34:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rX4jQ-0002xT-Tw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 14:34:16 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rX4jM-0006D1-H3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 14:34:14 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2d09bdddfc9so26575851fa.2 for ; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 11:34:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=burkett-cc.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1707161649; x=1707766449; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Y1zmOC1lMz/VD0kRs2mtfYE5OSVpIMdibealJO+8IaI=; b=WBzOk4jdA/HqDWl0c/dHkseOE5wVy4ENeDGOrLrogD951ny/5AZqSHx3WUlwVKM2r5 yLfDKeCYauvgZ4d6FMnN05+WtxSeoTTYJ7P96//88V9Zpy4PQk7gmXTKBBT4h8Y0Ia3i dJwRIvI0sFwsInvCzqTvwfppw/JDvcN9hHcWb0QU6cLZrg033wE8OmU7oCYkjN7qF8uP xobGc120k3ADxPj23dbPuM7jvLc/buzkEDxXpuHrfSmz6b154VYdV1CcMCdYMSCESxSd +/W4Utn+JjxAvvUey4k0PQMLFZEzPZ6vC/aT4uQt/Q+F1BtI/2+61POj4YomdtudrQsS ko5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1707161649; x=1707766449; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Y1zmOC1lMz/VD0kRs2mtfYE5OSVpIMdibealJO+8IaI=; b=g1XkEDVu943jqy80mlKb77ohbhs70eXfbDYTO9hL/hpAkxx6OHEMb5gFK0kLHb3n/C iCvh/iTajLNRBIsPabB2QHu2V46kQn02YpZ+SlImXa37PVjolgJYbKuSxFlzH0QUum/B +pBSLUE6Zm3h2FdGTtYcpQWdq0MoHasUddC9NyIK9byULBr85J+iVBUo2XESLVESZvoM 6wos32P1sMiti8xampj1zdbvTTkBOMkjqcLv2VgBvQ31filTO5rEVXe9UVOROlIacRTb fPbsEf5+yIB3LsL14JLVThzJh2dR/K7iXAX8tQacVYcfoxcANMCqX/CrEbpXgjNfp0tb xnXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywv587kFvoxSeBRtOI3WwPCYoSYz6OcDJQY0DRc+FV0P90v3Z9v EKhCCmu5CDnvXSMRm6MJWT/lTolw9PTH2hkseIXI1YVphjkggoU9o772JxMQdoWx9/JNuJewQtw OTeySerAqe8FQaBJkQPk/z9cWyK0tP69gKu3TNQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IED9j9QrzgweMZrl/XEr0ibqyhqm4ou5W3oHdKdXyZ99IPq4qSRp9rtT3rcMQFlLy/lRj9CrFnipf8EgtsGVfM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b808:0:b0:2d0:a0cb:2846 with SMTP id u8-20020a2eb808000000b002d0a0cb2846mr84529ljo.12.1707161649039; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 11:34:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <32071337-c91d-46ad-bb9b-10b8d0c83965@gutov.dev> Received-SPF: none client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::231; envelope-from=justin@burkett.cc; helo=mail-lj1-x231.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315905 Archived-At: > If you like which-key's UI (and I don't mind it, aside from the timer > thing -- seems like it can be more useful than the current > 'describe-bindings' in many cases), then we could ask the author for > this different mode of operation, where the timer only tells the user > how to get this transient menu with hints (pressing C-h), but the menu > itself isn't shown. > > Or more generally we'll have such a timer globally, and the message > ("use C-h") would be independent from which-key. But which-key can plug > into the "C-h" binding one way or another, to replace describe-bindings > if the user configured it this way. I'm the author of which-key, and I've been following along but don't have a strong opinion on whether it should be on by default, so I'll let you all decide. I should mention in response to the comments above that this feature is partially implemented through the following setup (from the README). It simply sets a long delay for the timer and allows you to use C-h to trigger the popup. ;; Allow C-h to trigger which-key before it is done automatically (setq which-key-show-early-on-C-h t) ;; make sure which-key doesn't show normally but refreshes quickly after it is ;; triggered. (setq which-key-idle-delay 10000) (setq which-key-idle-secondary-delay 0.05) (which-key-mode) Justin On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 2:17=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov wrot= e: > > On 05/02/2024 20:47, Philip Kaludercic wrote: > >>>> What if instead of having the help on a timer, the timer would add a > >>>> small hint in the echo about how to invoke help (i.e. press C-h)? > >>> I think that would be a significant improvement if it is to be > >>> enabled > >>> by default. I don't have an issue with the presentation (though the > >>> transient buffer is my preferred UX). > >> Is "transient buffer" the same as what which-key uses? I think the > >> 'transient' package uses similar display. > > I don't know, what I meant with transient buffer is that it isn't > > persistent, as is the case with C-h C-h where a new window pops up that > > is no different than any other window and behaves consistently. > > Transient buffers, in my experience, usually gobble up all key-presses > > and re-implement their own "MVC" that can differ in subtle points. > > What I'm wondering, is where to do from here. > > If you like which-key's UI (and I don't mind it, aside from the timer > thing -- seems like it can be more useful than the current > 'describe-bindings' in many cases), then we could ask the author for > this different mode of operation, where the timer only tells the user > how to get this transient menu with hints (pressing C-h), but the menu > itself isn't shown. > > Or more generally we'll have such a timer globally, and the message > ("use C-h") would be independent from which-key. But which-key can plug > into the "C-h" binding one way or another, to replace describe-bindings > if the user configured it this way.