Re: What does use-package do?

Re: What does use-package do?

[Payas Relekar]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Can someone send me a self-contained description of the job
> use-package does, from a user's perspective?
>
> I'm not asking about how it does that job, or how it works.

use-package allows writing emacs configuration in a declarative manner,
rather than imperative. It does few more things:

- Describe autoload dependencies by means of packages, commands, hooks
  and keybindings, allowing faster startup without affecting UX
- Allow configuring/executing stuff before/after package loading
- Isolate configuration for individual packages in separate
  s-expressions.

In general, making things declarative has had huge improvement in my
config debug-ability, despite having 170+ packages currently loaded,
without significantly increasing startup time.

--

Re: What does use-package do?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 10:08:38 +0530
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Can someone send me a self-contained description of the job
> > use-package does, from a user's perspective?
> >
> > I'm not asking about how it does that job, or how it works.
> 
> use-package allows writing emacs configuration in a declarative manner,
> rather than imperative. It does few more things:
> 
> - Describe autoload dependencies by means of packages, commands, hooks
>   and keybindings, allowing faster startup without affecting UX
> - Allow configuring/executing stuff before/after package loading
> - Isolate configuration for individual packages in separate
>   s-expressions.
> 
> In general, making things declarative has had huge improvement in my
> config debug-ability, despite having 170+ packages currently loaded,
> without significantly increasing startup time.

I think reading this page will be much more effective as the answer to
Richard's questions:

  https://jwiegley.github.io/use-package/keywords/

Re: What does use-package do?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > use-package allows writing emacs configuration in a declarative manner,
  > > rather than imperative. It does few more things:

That is helpful.

  > I think reading this page will be much more effective as the answer to
  > Richard's questions:

  >   https://jwiegley.github.io/use-package/keywords/

I expect that will be helpful too.

Thanks.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: What does use-package do?

[Akib Azmain Turja]

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Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Can someone send me a self-contained description of the job
>> use-package does, from a user's perspective?
>>
>> I'm not asking about how it does that job, or how it works.
>
> use-package allows writing emacs configuration in a declarative manner,
> rather than imperative. It does few more things:
>
> - Describe autoload dependencies by means of packages, commands, hooks
>   and keybindings, allowing faster startup without affecting UX
> - Allow configuring/executing stuff before/after package loading
> - Isolate configuration for individual packages in separate
>   s-expressions.
>
> In general, making things declarative has had huge improvement in my
> config debug-ability, despite having 170+ packages currently loaded,
> without significantly increasing startup time.
>
> --
>

There is also a GNU ELPA package called Leaf (I'm using it).  It is very
similar to use-package, but somehow I like it more than use-package.
There is also another GNU ELPA called setup.el, which uses
context-sensitive macros to solve the same problem use-package and leaf
solves.  I think I like the setup.el approach, but I'm locked in due to
the heavy use of Leaf in my init file ;-)

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja

Find me on Mastodon at @akib@hostux.social.

This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key.  Its fingerprint is:

    7001 8CE5 819F 17A3 BBA6  66AF E74F 0EFA 922A E7F5

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Re: What does use-package do?

[Stefan Kangas]

Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes:

> There is also a GNU ELPA package called Leaf (I'm using it).  It is very
> similar to use-package, but somehow I like it more than use-package.

There was talk of integrating leaf into use-package a year ago.

Did anything happen with that?

Re: What does use-package do?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes:
>
>> There is also a GNU ELPA package called Leaf (I'm using it).  It is very
>> similar to use-package, but somehow I like it more than use-package.
>
> There was talk of integrating leaf into use-package a year ago.
>
> Did anything happen with that?

Do you remember what thread that was, the only one I remember is
https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3@gmail.com/.

Re: What does use-package do?

[Stefan Kangas]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> Do you remember what thread that was, the only one I remember is
> https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3@gmail.com/.

Yes, that's the one I'm thinking of.

I think you want to start reading at:
https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CADwFkm=mSZHeKf0=G7rXhOKOqSxOYWwOQfUv8=7fZWEaDOCTKg@mail.gmail.com/

Re: What does use-package do?

[Naoya Yamashita]

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(I used to send Email from gnus, but I have already lost my gnus
settings and will reply from Gmail.  I hope I get it right.)

> There was talk of integrating leaf into use-package a year ago.

Nothing is going on with integrating leaf and use-package as no
one is working on it.  Honestly, I don't like use-package because
it has surprising behavior that often seems nosy.  That is why
leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that
use-package has and to give user a better interface, which is
why it cannot be integrated.

On the other hand, I agree that leaf has a puzzling internal
structure.  It has huge conditional branches directly in a list,
dynamically generating S-expressions and eval'ing them.  This
structure makes debugging difficult and adding new features
difficult for new people. (I can do it, though.)  This is why I
am hesitant to have it standardized in Emacs.

In summary, the functionality that use-package already provides
should be sorted out because it contains magic.  The interface
provided by leaf is pretty, but it has a puzzling internal
structure.  I would support a third use-package that should come
standard with Emacs, if there is one.  And some people said that
the name "LEAF" is a bad name.  Hopefully the third use-package
will have a better name.

2022年10月10日(月) 5:16 Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
> > Do you remember what thread that was, the only one I remember is
> >
> https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3@gmail.com/
> .
>
> Yes, that's the one I'm thinking of.
>
> I think you want to start reading at:
>
> https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CADwFkm=mSZHeKf0=G7rXhOKOqSxOYWwOQfUv8=7fZWEaDOCTKg@mail.gmail.com/
>

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Re: What does use-package do?

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Naoya Yamashita <conao3@gmail.com> writes:

> Honestly, I don't like use-package because it has surprising behavior that
> often seems nosy.  That is why leaf was created, to organize/reduce the
> features that use-package has and to give user a better interface, which is
> why it cannot be integrated.

You have mentioned this a few times, Naoya, but again I'll say that
use-package 2.0 completely reorganized its internal structure so functions are
fully modular and can be added/changed/removed however you wish. I'm not sure
what you mean by "nosy" or "suprising" behavior, but if you wanted you could
revise how _all_ of the declarative keywords behave. Everything is
configurable these days, and this is how the core functionality is implemented
also.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: What does use-package do?

[Emanuel Berg]

John Wiegley wrote:

>> Honestly, I don't like use-package because it has
>> surprising behavior that often seems nosy.  That is why
>> leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that
>> use-package has and to give user a better interface, which
>> is why it cannot be integrated.
>
> You have mentioned this a few times, Naoya, but again I'll
> say that use-package 2.0 completely reorganized its internal
> structure so functions are fully modular and can be
> added/changed/removed however you wish. I'm not sure what
> you mean by "nosy" or "suprising" behavior, but if you
> wanted you could revise how _all_ of the declarative
> keywords behave. Everything is configurable these days, and
> this is how the core functionality is implemented also.

Indeed, nothing new ever needs to be created to reduce the
features of something else.

On the contrary, if anything, one should _add_ features!

The interface on the other hand should be mad as easy as
possible to configure even to non-programmers, and one can add
a "style" or "suite" option to give them a head start ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: What does use-package do?

[Stefan Kangas]

Naoya Yamashita <conao3@gmail.com> writes:

> Nothing is going on with integrating leaf and use-package as no
> one is working on it.  Honestly, I don't like use-package because
> it has surprising behavior that often seems nosy.  That is why
> leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that
> use-package has and to give user a better interface, which is
> why it cannot be integrated.

I don't think I understand.  Why would it be impossible to integrate
them?  The packages seem very similar to me.

> In summary, the functionality that use-package already provides
> should be sorted out because it contains magic.

Could you elaborate?

Would you be willing to work on fixing those problems?

> The interface provided by leaf is pretty, but it has a puzzling
> internal structure.  I would support a third use-package that should
> come standard with Emacs, if there is one.

Sadly, there is no such alternative use-package implementation, so I
think we'll have to start out from improving what we have.

Re: What does use-package do?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Naoya Yamashita <conao3@gmail.com> writes:

> (I used to send Email from gnus, but I have already lost my gnus
> settings and will reply from Gmail.  I hope I get it right.)
>
>> There was talk of integrating leaf into use-package a year ago.
>
> Nothing is going on with integrating leaf and use-package as no
> one is working on it.  Honestly, I don't like use-package because
> it has surprising behavior that often seems nosy.  That is why
> leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that
> use-package has and to give user a better interface, which is
> why it cannot be integrated.
>
> On the other hand, I agree that leaf has a puzzling internal
> structure.  It has huge conditional branches directly in a list,
> dynamically generating S-expressions and eval'ing them.  This
> structure makes debugging difficult and adding new features
> difficult for new people. (I can do it, though.)  This is why I
> am hesitant to have it standardized in Emacs.
>
> In summary, the functionality that use-package already provides
> should be sorted out because it contains magic.  The interface
> provided by leaf is pretty, but it has a puzzling internal
> structure.  I would support a third use-package that should come
> standard with Emacs, if there is one.  And some people said that
> the name "LEAF" is a bad name.  Hopefully the third use-package
> will have a better name.

I am not sure if there is any interest, but my `setup' package[0] might
be such a candidate, when combined with a "declarative to imperative"
translation layer.  I was playing with such a concept a few months
ago[1], but never completed it.  This specific implementation might be
too "cl-generic"-heavy.  But in principle it works:

We start with a declarative expression:

        (use-setup foo
          :init
          (first we have)
          (to eval this)
          :config
          (do this)
          (then that)
          :hook (bar-mode)
          :bind ("C-f" . foo-forward)
          :custom (foo-option t))

which is translated into a `setup'-expression:

        (setup foo
          (:option foo-option t)
          (:bind "C-f" foo-forward)
          (:hook-into bar-mode)
          (:when-loaded :when-loaded
                        (do this))
          (progn
            (to eval this)
            (first we have)))

that then expands to regular code:

        (progn
          (progn
            (custom-load-symbol 'foo-option)
            (funcall
             (or
              (get 'foo-option 'custom-set)
              (function set-default))
             'foo-option t))
          (eval-after-load 'foo
            (function
             (lambda nil
               (define-key foo-mode-map ""
                           (function foo-forward)))))
          (add-hook 'bar-mode-hook
                    (function foo-mode))
          (eval-after-load 'foo
            (function
             (lambda nil
               (do this)
               (then that))))
          (progn
            (to eval this)
            (first we have)))

[0] https://git.sr.ht/~pkal/setup
[1] https://paste.sr.ht/~pkal/4b8519fca721e0ac651d5598f6d582ae92ff84dd

> 2022年10月10日(月) 5:16 Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>:
>
>> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>>
>> > Do you remember what thread that was, the only one I remember is
>> >
>> https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3@gmail.com/
>> .
>>
>> Yes, that's the one I'm thinking of.
>>
>> I think you want to start reading at:
>>
>> https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CADwFkm=mSZHeKf0=G7rXhOKOqSxOYWwOQfUv8=7fZWEaDOCTKg@mail.gmail.com/
>>

Re: What does use-package do?

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> I am not sure if there is any interest, but my `setup' package[0] might be
> such a candidate, when combined with a "declarative to imperative"
> translation layer. I was playing with such a concept a few months ago[1],
> but never completed it. This specific implementation might be too
> "cl-generic"-heavy. But in principle it works:

This is a very nice idea, I didn't consider having a "canonical intermediate
form". Perhaps because the user would mostly never see it, and the final
result is very much the same. By separating out the processing of declarative
keywords into individual helper functions, I was hoping to make the processing
of each "bit" simple enough so that just macro-expansion would be the only
tool needed to debug when the expanded behavior is unexpected. I still like
the idea very much, though; it speaks to my compiler-writer heart. :)

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Progress on merging use-package?

[Payas Relekar]

Hello!

Recent progress with eglot has kindled my hopes, so here goes another
shot.

I understand John Wiegley(Author and maintainer of use-package, cc'd) always intended to submit use-package[0] to
emacs core, and would like to ask what the remaining blockers are, and
what could be done to improve the status quo.

The Github issue[1] tracking copyright assignments appear to be nearly
at completion, with last contributor remaining having difficulties
getting the confirmation (or something).

I understand John has been very occupied with $LIFE, but if it is
possible to take this further with any outside help, I'm sure there are
volunteers here :)

Thanks,
Payas

[0]: https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package
[1]: https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package/issues/282

--

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello!
>
> Recent progress with eglot has kindled my hopes, so here goes another
> shot.
>
> I understand John Wiegley(Author and maintainer of use-package, cc'd)
> always intended to submit use-package[0] to
> emacs core, and would like to ask what the remaining blockers are, and
> what could be done to improve the status quo.
>
> The Github issue[1] tracking copyright assignments appear to be nearly
> at completion, with last contributor remaining having difficulties
> getting the confirmation (or something).
>
> I understand John has been very occupied with $LIFE, but if it is
> possible to take this further with any outside help, I'm sure there are
> volunteers here :)

FYI there was a thread on exactly this topic earlier this year
(https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/87y21ri7px.fsf@posteo.net/), that
slightly diverged towards the end.  John mentioned the following:

        I would definitely like to see it move to core, and would be
        happy to work with others to make this happen. I feel it still
        needs enough effort -- mostly in terms of documentation -- that
        this is why it hasn't happened yet.

I still argue that adding it to GNU ELPA would be a good fist step, just
like how Eglot was part of GNU ELPA for a while before the merge started.

> Thanks,
> Payas
>
> [0]: https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package
> [1]: https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package/issues/282
>
> --

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Payas Relekar]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> FYI there was a thread on exactly this topic earlier this year
> (https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/87y21ri7px.fsf@posteo.net/), that
> slightly diverged towards the end.  John mentioned the following:
>
>         I would definitely like to see it move to core, and would be
>         happy to work with others to make this happen. I feel it still
>         needs enough effort -- mostly in terms of documentation -- that
>         this is why it hasn't happened yet.
>
> I still argue that adding it to GNU ELPA would be a good fist step, just
> like how Eglot was part of GNU ELPA for a while before the merge started.

Thanks for pointing this out! Perhaps 6 months is fair amount of time to
resurface the discussion, but if John thinks thats too much pestering,
we can stop here.

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> FYI there was a thread on exactly this topic earlier this year
>> (https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/87y21ri7px.fsf@posteo.net/), that
>> slightly diverged towards the end.  John mentioned the following:
>>
>>         I would definitely like to see it move to core, and would be
>>         happy to work with others to make this happen. I feel it still
>>         needs enough effort -- mostly in terms of documentation -- that
>>         this is why it hasn't happened yet.
>>
>> I still argue that adding it to GNU ELPA would be a good fist step, just
>> like how Eglot was part of GNU ELPA for a while before the merge started.
>
> Thanks for pointing this out! Perhaps 6 months is fair amount of time to
> resurface the discussion, but if John thinks thats too much pestering,
> we can stop here.

I don't think so, after all the issue is that someone has to be found to
do that last bit of janitorial work required to merge use-package.

> Thanks,
> Payas
>
> --

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Payas Relekar]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> I don't think so, after all the issue is that someone has to be found to
> do that last bit of janitorial work required to merge use-package.

Pardon me if for not getting obvious, but by janitorial work, do you
mean pushing to ELPA? Or the documentation change that John mentioned?
Or something else? If it is anything like Eglot work (preparing repo,
git munging, copyright checks), I am happy to lend a hand.

Anything related to actual code will unfortunately be with John or
someone else with codebase understanding.

I would like to volunteer for documentation work as well, but a primer
on what needs to be done is missing from the other thread.

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "PR" == Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

PR> Anything related to actual code will unfortunately be with John or someone
PR> else with codebase understanding.

PR> I would like to volunteer for documentation work as well, but a primer on
PR> what needs to be done is missing from the other thread.

I'd be happy to serve as supporting developer if someone else is willing to
spearhead this effort on the docs and integration side. If you run into any
issues, e-mail me directly and I'll be happy to help, but if it waits on me to
get the documentation and proper build infrastructure together, I'm afraid it
won't happen.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Payas Relekar]

Thank you John!

John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> writes:

> I'd be happy to serve as supporting developer if someone else is willing to
> spearhead this effort on the docs and integration side. If you run into any
> issues, e-mail me directly and I'll be happy to help, but if it waits on me to
> get the documentation and proper build infrastructure together, I'm afraid it
> won't happen.

Alright, I'll try my hand. It will be slow going, for I am but a noob,
and most likely not happen before 29 branch is cut, but thats the plan.

Combining Philip's steps here, the plan is:

1. Get use-package in ELPA
   Philip already has a patch ready to be reviewed
2. Complete all documentation
   Not sure what it means to 'complete', but I'll go through it, try
   to make it in more tutorial-esque.
3. Prepare documentation in texinfo
   Will cross that bridge when 2 is done.
4. Add all relevant files to emacs.git
   TBD when 3 is done.
5. Ensure everything loads properly
   TBD when 4 is done. This part will probably need testing from wider
   community, but its out enough in the future that I don't want to
   think about it right now.

Philip, would you have any pointer to get started on #2?

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> Philip, would you have any pointer to get started on #2?

Take a look at use-package.texi in the use-package repository.  There
are currently two TODO that ought to be addressed.  And as the file is
generated, the texinfo markup is probably not as idiomatic as it ought
to be.  There are at least a few instances where @code is used instead
of @kbd, @key or @var.  @ref where @xref/@pxref might be better.  Content-wise
a few sections such as how to install the package will be outdated, and
I'd rephrase the sections that mention MELPA to use ELPA examples.  I
also notice that the spacing is inconsistent, and one should try to keep
ensure that each full stop is followed by two spaces.

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[chad]

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Eli & Lars, as a point of clarification: what would you want to see in
terms of integration into core for use-package to make the late-November
cut for emacs 29.1?

My understanding is that the copyright concerns are cleared, but John
(Weigley, for anyone looking at this later) believes that some
documentation work needs to be done. He doesn't have time to do it himself,
but there do seem to be some potential volunteers (tentatively including
myself).

I expect that _eventually_ relatively deep documentation changes would be
wanted if it were included in core (both to use-package and to
emacs's existing documentation), but that it might be ok to include the
package (with correct documentation) in 29.1 without necessarily pushing it
throughout all of emacs' own documentation. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks,
~Chad

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Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:57:26 -0400
> Cc: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>, 
> 	Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> 
> Eli & Lars, as a point of clarification: what would you want to see in terms of integration into core for
> use-package to make the late-November cut for emacs 29.1? 
> 
> My understanding is that the copyright concerns are cleared, but John (Weigley, for anyone looking at this
> later) believes that some documentation work needs to be done. He doesn't have time to do it himself, but
> there do seem to be some potential volunteers (tentatively including myself).
> 
> I expect that _eventually_ relatively deep documentation changes would be wanted if it were included in core
> (both to use-package and to emacs's existing documentation), but that it might be ok to include the package
> (with correct documentation) in 29.1 without necessarily pushing it throughout all of emacs' own
> documentation. Does that sound reasonable?

I have difficulty answering these questions.  I think we should hear
from John first, because he knows best what has to be done.

Having a separate manual for use-package is fine if this is supposed
to be an optional package, not something used by core.  But I admit
that I have no clear idea of the purpose of bundling use-package with
Emacs, so maybe what I say makes no sense.

Re: Progress on merging use-package?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:57:26 -0400
>> Cc: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>, 
>> 	Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> 
>> Eli & Lars, as a point of clarification: what would you want to see in terms of integration into core for
>> use-package to make the late-November cut for emacs 29.1? 
>> 
>> My understanding is that the copyright concerns are cleared, but John (Weigley, for anyone looking at this
>> later) believes that some documentation work needs to be done. He doesn't have time to do it himself, but
>> there do seem to be some potential volunteers (tentatively including myself).
>> 
>> I expect that _eventually_ relatively deep documentation changes would be wanted if it were included in core
>> (both to use-package and to emacs's existing documentation), but that it might be ok to include the package
>> (with correct documentation) in 29.1 without necessarily pushing it throughout all of emacs' own
>> documentation. Does that sound reasonable?
>
> I have difficulty answering these questions.  I think we should hear
> from John first, because he knows best what has to be done.

I believe that Payas (<877d1scgyv.fsf@gmail.com>) gave a good summary of
what is to be done:

    1. Get use-package in ELPA
       Philip already has a patch ready to be reviewed
    2. Complete all documentation
       Not sure what it means to 'complete', but I'll go through it, try
       to make it in more tutorial-esque.
    3. Prepare documentation in texinfo
       Will cross that bridge when 2 is done.
    4. Add all relevant files to emacs.git
       TBD when 3 is done.
    5. Ensure everything loads properly
       TBD when 4 is done. This part will probably need testing from wider
       community, but its out enough in the future that I don't want to
       think about it right now.

Step 1 has already been prepared, as Stefan has pushed a (disabled)
package specification that can be enabled whenever it is decided to do
so.

As to step 2, I don't use use-package myself so it is difficult for me
to say what is missing in the documentation, but apparently there are
unfinished sections that need writing.

Step 3 should be pretty easy, especially since the use-package
repository already contains an auto-generated file that has to be
cleaned up since the automatic translation from .org to .texi is known
to be less than perfect (see <87o7v37sqh.fsf@posteo.net>).

> Having a separate manual for use-package is fine if this is supposed
> to be an optional package, not something used by core.  But I admit
> that I have no clear idea of the purpose of bundling use-package with
> Emacs, so maybe what I say makes no sense.

It is common to use `use-package' in such a way that a configuration can
bootstrap itself.  That is to say that when installing Emacs on a new
device, all you need to do is to place your init.el in the right spot,
and when Emacs is started the first time everything is installed and
configured "automatically".  Having `use-package' available OOTB (or at
least on ELPA) would make this easier to do because you wouldn't have to
add and configure MELPA.  In my estimate, "use-package" is still one of
the most popular packages that is not available from either GNU ELPA or
NonGNU ELPA, so this move might help more people to be satisfied by the
ELPAs.  This in turn could help promote package stability, as more
people move away from rolling release packages.

What does use-package do?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Can someone send me a self-contained description of the job
use-package does, from a user's perspective?

I'm not asking about how it does that job, or how it works.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: What does use-package do?

[John Wiegley]

It allows the user to declaratively configure a required package. There are several “best practices” when writing startup config that will load quickly and efficiently, and use-package effectively abstracts these practices for the user.

I originally wrote it to eliminate a lot of boilerplate and duplication in my own high efficiency unit.el file (with hundreds of packages configured, but less than one second Emacs load time).

John

On Fri, Oct 7, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Can someone send me a self-contained description of the job
> use-package does, from a user's perspective?
>
> I'm not asking about how it does that job, or how it works.
>
> -- 
> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)