From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Naoya Yamashita Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What does use-package do? Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:46:45 +0900 Message-ID: References: <87czb253h3.fsf@gmail.com> <87sfjyqy8o.fsf@disroot.org> <87ilkt2mks.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d6ee105eabaf79a" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13001"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Philip Kaludercic , Akib Azmain Turja , Payas Relekar , emacs-devel@gnu.org, John Wiegley To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 11 06:48:29 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oi7Bs-0003Cn-US for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 06:48:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51690 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi7Br-00008U-KG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:48:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42934) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi7AS-0007rz-OC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:47:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]:43662) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi7AQ-0000d3-GA; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:47:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id 187so9959629iov.10; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 21:46:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bJ68gnaFfiIfDagm0iJERgVX1/zwzAqh81dVRlrtP84=; b=Ll+DQjYRC5U8Hwsi6/FOHdLYyFgFqjQli3cuy9K+2tw/9UjeF08R4JMxvUExQI1uMn LdnXXRYUrPtrDHYbY4QUsC7zTXiwWPKxuvs6EQmhbW+f4POMzGaGg9YCaV0TMC2AzlKt cxedu5ezCfOw7Lpg9Ux1XTptZb2XlmhnRflUVhSTnJUFzRjxrp7ssbL/AeQS1a/ryb1L o7WH2fgrEGVZQzS/pHYe/KkxJgIIOX4T86ZEikapoAQ8Tkn6XyTVAQhKbhMCKR5eyGBM +w+0/j6Blj+tRIkXWdYh7WTLSBJlJPKgSPDKIMDRXdDy5r/bnOapvLe6DeHSKJEErpmB h5jA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bJ68gnaFfiIfDagm0iJERgVX1/zwzAqh81dVRlrtP84=; b=vjpoKoNvVGPukrvsY+V0SNgaYO9D8cvDosRa+1X5nefStssOKrOSW97blHKpfPj6Pk o//UL0ghvFncXSfT7RQ0FiLf0jROjgKwvJnO+i5/vFowwQFuB0pvRCQIeHkeR6G7rqeC oZAoai2b5AJg9uTQyFBIRgygsAcWpcFreTPDACzXYQFCHr4fBsVGPeMtFuT3P5FrbXm6 oyDvSqugSxaJeksdfW3FopNPBfiy+GCAM4PF1hA5gcX0c15awYcDhtiBALPdhO/B4SJ9 CG62Us+agMsyaFm/VG0GE/Nl1gKq5QaTtAzhMTieJKXatmbtiOLr7lph01fbbSFox5vq V0uw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0ggupGxAh+loQidavr0DrE6RM/tWeMP3as6e77Kj37UjuJx+RD McJgUs2+WUu+7PjNs6XTYazIdirp4N3hLLjpCVk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7m2Sm55tNR4Nz6cfqIEcA1MoLysGlfXzWbgGnZjg1NRAc6yyrj4lLzzCkZCYbhAZe8g5epHoHYrboKfAJrWqI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:7123:0:b0:363:6f48:db3c with SMTP id n35-20020a027123000000b003636f48db3cmr11582139jac.120.1665463616367; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 21:46:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32; envelope-from=conao3@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd32.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:297415 Archived-At: --0000000000003d6ee105eabaf79a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (I used to send Email from gnus, but I have already lost my gnus settings and will reply from Gmail. I hope I get it right.) > There was talk of integrating leaf into use-package a year ago. Nothing is going on with integrating leaf and use-package as no one is working on it. Honestly, I don't like use-package because it has surprising behavior that often seems nosy. That is why leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that use-package has and to give user a better interface, which is why it cannot be integrated. On the other hand, I agree that leaf has a puzzling internal structure. It has huge conditional branches directly in a list, dynamically generating S-expressions and eval'ing them. This structure makes debugging difficult and adding new features difficult for new people. (I can do it, though.) This is why I am hesitant to have it standardized in Emacs. In summary, the functionality that use-package already provides should be sorted out because it contains magic. The interface provided by leaf is pretty, but it has a puzzling internal structure. I would support a third use-package that should come standard with Emacs, if there is one. And some people said that the name "LEAF" is a bad name. Hopefully the third use-package will have a better name. 2022=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=88) 5:16 Stefan Kangas : > Philip Kaludercic writes: > > > Do you remember what thread that was, the only one I remember is > > > https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3= @gmail.com/ > . > > Yes, that's the one I'm thinking of. > > I think you want to start reading at: > > https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CADwFkm=3DmSZHeKf0=3DG7rXhOKOqSxOYWwOQfUv8= =3D7fZWEaDOCTKg@mail.gmail.com/ > --0000000000003d6ee105eabaf79a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(I used to send Email from gnus, but I have already lost m= y gnus
settings and will reply from Gmail.=C2=A0 I hope I get it right.)=

> There was talk of integrating leaf into use-packag= e a year ago.

Nothing is going on with integrating leaf and use-pack= age as no
one is working on it.=C2=A0 Honestly, I don't like use-pac= kage because
it has surprising behavior that often seems nosy.=C2=A0 Tha= t is why
leaf was created, to organize/reduce the features that
use-p= ackage has and to give user a better interface, which is
why it cannot b= e integrated.

On the other hand, I agree that leaf has a puzzling in= ternal
structure.=C2=A0 It has huge conditional branches directly in a l= ist,
dynamically generating S-expressions and eval'ing them.=C2=A0 T= his
structure makes debugging difficult and adding new features
diffi= cult for new people. (I can do it, though.) =C2=A0This is why I
am hesit= ant to have it standardized in Emacs.

In summary, the functionality = that use-package already provides
should be sorted out because it contai= ns magic.=C2=A0 The interface
provided by leaf is pretty, but it has a p= uzzling internal
structure.=C2=A0 I would support a third use-package th= at should come
standard with Emacs, if there is one.=C2=A0 And some peop= le said that
the name "LEAF" is a bad name.=C2=A0 Hopefully th= e third use-package
will have a better name.

--0000000000003d6ee105eabaf79a--