From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:08:09 -0700 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83pnbddrfd.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <90C1E75D-214A-464E-AA24-25CC8C220B3B@icloud.com> <83pnbabjok.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="3675"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 23:08:52 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYFfQ-0000pc-VE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:08:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60312 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYFfP-0001Wz-Vf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:08:51 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38878) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYFen-00017Z-TE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:08:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]:46487) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYFem-0004gk-VA; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:08:13 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id s37so3894151ybe.13; Mon, 11 May 2020 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=een4mdgqaJeuil3BmknejBH27Gel5w3nRWt5F4Ih4w0=; b=KO5a2O5MinEmMWSNyfHzKTl1K4nhJjm5bJ53ZhV2MP0OgblfkLLg78P5nKr4/khhZS tzkacEQlSdX4+nZRxQfaRASHpxcysBu+xrSmXokDUirkZmFwcGKTfSxGVIjGaVDRAFQz vGcbZmjX8pV3GUYx3NIWVyocX8MHdxdoFagOHFGZ8OiCa/47svAf8UZWWQrSCGi+uURv 2WBBIFEnecGBK6TESfbhTvcG50WEyqfxe+0PB6Ar6Dgu+aFEAiGa0rv1BsEX954SQNrL sPnUA1wBxmolBwHhEtybXic8N53E0TPkL2+6Ax1Q/E7C27mpMXlEAQ9Aq+FwypZgGiGg 60Cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=een4mdgqaJeuil3BmknejBH27Gel5w3nRWt5F4Ih4w0=; b=DCQUoId0/J8fJlIqQeO+cUGLPEVEkxxilbL4p3B2acGiZXkuqCarSWA+JB0idudgqb UjdHnZmsVrdTjWxRo+/vrCil5FdVy4LzV7EIMibO4fEu6nY+52h++fdDYpysTN9FImx8 GEQt+xaTaY5tTlFrGcPqa46Cba89hr5fIjWRLK94FzgIBBP/8SmsXQ3rmKfnOBeK/V4a SwBgpF3Wcp0dXJR6xsue0CejggzNKstzK7f3VgENitAfHPEgNvwAXxfIBQwPzQJEMJOR xUlpqaQve6h4eFjVT6ZY8IJPQdX13mjA4qh85/VosfIh59A2ODqysyWUSveKC+dHN1iI f2Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYROihpIVJtFN5AmeLtq+klJtzP1c72zYBmu/dacbTAqlOm/rCg 5ix4Yn7erTe4mlv+Gz4MJX82R8Va8stAE7OHdz+pMQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRza+MPJkHP/gnInd03cigb4i34ZfWag1YU+PXjE/tRLS3jJgIKcSlZh92Hvr5nYovgha6vo7mbP23lLMpXCw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:86d0:: with SMTP id y16mr9955808ybm.309.1589231290871; Mon, 11 May 2020 14:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 11 May 2020 14:08:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <83pnbabjok.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb30.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249894 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Having a package on ELPA is not as good as having it in the core (for ex= ample >> Magit), but it=E2=80=99s much better than having the user to force them = to use MELPA >> as soon as they start using Emacs. > > Why? what's wrong with using MELPA? The main problem for me flows from the fact that we can't configure MELPA by default nor even recommend it prominently in the manual and on the website. There are packages on MELPA which IMHO could be extremely beneficial to install for beginning users, for example, but we can't tell our users about them.[1] For many users (me included), using Emacs without packages from MELPA would mean missing out on functionality you depend on for carrying out your daily work. We are not really delivering the "full Emacs package" as is, nor do we tell our users how to get there. Instead, we ask them to rely on third-party sources, wikis, blogs and chat rooms to fill in the blanks left by our documentation and default configuration. I also think it's strategically bad if we want more people assign their code and get more people involved in Emacs development. The way to do that is surely to do everything we can to pull package developers closer to us, not just tell them to stay in MELPA. (I don't think the best option is to start recommending MELPA, by the way. We would be better off if we distributed certain packages from an official GNU archive, such as "ELPA" or "ELPA-contrib" as I suggested before.) Best regards, Stefan Kangas Footnotes: [1] For me, this is also connected to the discussion about better onboarding, which could be improved by recommending certain packages for your use-case. For example, if you tell Emacs you want to code PHP, you should probably be pointed to `php-mode' (only available on MELPA). Or: "If you want to use git, why not try the built-in 'vc' or the third-party package 'magit' (or use both)."