From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:48:00 -0500 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22535"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 01:48:41 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1laS0u-0005jc-EX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:48:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58824 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laS0t-0007Z4-HV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:48:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38258) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laS0K-000798-E2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:48:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173]:33468) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laS0I-0001Ik-Qh; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:48:04 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-f173.google.com with SMTP id n10so15877783plc.0; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uDRDVU76CH6ldOQ3Ztt+4nFuKHyZ9ckB98kd2XrQNrA=; b=jXnqD+uhRjMOuTJBMtxUWlZCi+cCCuMlmjygugfiEEQbZ9Pvo6G/VE4UR48zF+Tqu+ ThkIlOC4XgyVTjytP3KGGmW/VquGXOhkEaUF7bOLivPQ8X67HRvdVvo0/CIzSeyXOML3 BJ48agvmR49RJ+VeDOMcXkkD6lF8pj5AX1lqNVhvZEXA75eLTL9VU3NxxlBAN716N6al WUO/foJQmIVeTKVVU2cRr+vXZphRSJb1rECpSBxX/bzcXiP+MJXiztNzzLkx4nJZkFxs BkUVK/2Rb64fDmoNCcS4j2TCIYbkdQUUd+NlS0ZNWRgqbHVFI/gXRP1jjxMLbXv5TS/u v7UQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530dBo+0ZoF7FMx1GKOl+i0IhfRGNHrAwtU32oUyJD58SPgkWr6b ZdIEAZvPUqHhRJPdWxxfUGH7rIPRmSCIlBr06qg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMErmvxb6F+0gKqF1RUPl/Kk1jiOV7At0TezSbAIuciKXQcrdNONpU2v8oP4rdC3MqY5DO/KTdfEacpuK88lw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:19ca:: with SMTP id nm10mr12330912pjb.175.1619308080676; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:48:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.214.173; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-f173.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268355 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 24.04.2021 16:21, Stefan Kangas wrote: > >> That was 2 weeks ago. Based on the feedback I received at the time, I >> have now pushed my final version of this patch to master. >> >> There is of course still time for further tweaks before Emacs 28. >> I invite anyone to report bugs in case they can see any opportunities >> for improving this. (Feel free to CC me if you do as I'm currently not >> subscribed to the bug list.) > > Just checked it out. It's a significant improvement, thank you. > > Two notes: > > - I have 'C-h C-a' rebound to 'apropos' instead of 'apropos-command' > locally. As a result, help-for-help shows 'M-x apropos-commnad' in the > first column and (see also 'a') later. > > The regression is that the previous version printed > > M-x apropos-command PATTERN > > followed by 3 spaces, whereas the new one prints > M-x apropos-commandTABSearch for commands (see also a) > > and for some reason TAB is printed with zero width. > > It's a minor thing, to be honest. I can reproduce that here. The easiest way of fixing it is to change the separator to "\s\t" instead of just "\t". It would be slightly less clean I guess, but since the screen is modal I suppose most people will never notice the difference. WDYT? > - Not a regression, old problem: > > Instructions say "Type ..., or SPC or DEL to scroll". > > But DEL here is actually . If I just press Delete on the > keyboard, help-for-help exits instead of scrolling. > > And the target audience of help-for-help is probably at least as > ignorant as myself about the difference between DEL and Delete. As you say, this is an old problem. For example `C-h k ' here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from )". I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace". I would prefer that would just be printed as such, everywhere. I'm guessing there are historical reasons for why this isn't already the case. It would be great if we could fix this. > Perhaps the easiest fix would be to handle Delete same as Backspace here. Yes, that could alleviate the problem in this particular case.