From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 06:24:07 +0200 Message-ID: References: <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf4dyhel.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20422"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "Philip K." , Daniel Fleischer , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii , John Yates To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 04 06:25:22 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMNF3-00056N-UT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 06:25:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59526 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMNF1-0003K8-Si for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 00:25:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44372) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMNE7-0002eP-11 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 00:24:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-f179.google.com ([209.85.215.179]:45873) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMNE5-0006nr-Eg; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 00:24:22 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-f179.google.com with SMTP id n18so980892pgm.12; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CUlxigjBCHFFVVz1UYtgQsUizqI6zR4ZNyxvELGZf8Y=; b=C6Hukc/vJJ3eDo0qaq3KCG0hJxqkXk4jQGbqEYtircMlPadYqFgogA0JS9wqgUkXQs EcJkw47j3va+3FDs2n6DPcr293wxW/cAr9z3dpMAAT8ucIpFxbNfmw+KIV6vT83l4MEL 0dwfofD4W/cW0XoStVJlN4sRZd0ehPl/xaHgvP4VEGNkgYPKI470UG7V2mLE+Ck6aaR3 gikjMTrB1ncJKjpeoaAgS/FXnuf8/pC2volNgItz6MbPZigr9OiAt0COJfU8wPQrhITe aAOp8rUSh1ViBnyFuhbCVcAZZuxrGeQT07oNko6NrGKEP9+di6VrFargLvnC2+rqMj8A 6SJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533myjMEfahqHil8YmuMfCE7w4NB/3ozclVJd9q9moiXpbK4ef0t kCy+HdV11HLCMGooj92dUfWnlDxIVwty90DQvg8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYW6/TjIngQu/zXYXNup/0nzERAyfgQ+CD7XBxcyPitJ3DMBL+LPDvu8KwIGGizlNVX0VeMKZp8GiRfkkOQhs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8b07:0:b029:3c7:c29f:9822 with SMTP id f7-20020aa78b070000b02903c7c29f9822mr2086838pfd.33.1630729459271; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:24:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.179; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f179.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273834 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > When we look at the polls about indentation style preference (where > "tabs" can be as high as ~30% for certain languages), they don't prefer > the kind of tab-based indentation that Emacs does. Which really means we > only satisfy some tiny fraction of the users OOTB in any language. I do appreciate the work Dmitry put into Bug#20322, which as far as I can tell shows that spaces-over-tabs is much more widely used than tabs-over-spaces. The reason we didn't flip the default was that John Wiegely was worried that it would lead to problems for someone out there, and that the benefit of the change is too low. I can see much sense in that. At the same time, since the data we have suggests that spaces-over-tabs is more common/popular, indent-tabs-mode to t is an unnecessary frustration for most users that we might want to remove. One way we could move forward with this, or other changes, is to make an experimental change on master. That is, we would tentatively flip the default on master after the emacs-28 branch is cut, and wait to see what kind of feedback it results in. If we don't get any reports of breakage before Emacs 29.1, even after our pretests, the new default wins. Or some variation on that formula (we take the decision after having had it for N days, etc.). I think we have made such experiments only once (or twice?) so far. I'm not saying we need to do this for indent-tabs-mode specifically, but the process is there and could be used in more cases. It could even be used for changes we feel more confident about (i.e. the ones that we today would just make, and then it stays because the decision was already taken).