From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Increase default `line-spacing' to 0.05, 0.10 or 0.15 [proposal] Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 14:47:40 -0500 Message-ID: References: <871ramlbpy.fsf@telefonica.net> <87fsz1zmhv.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30304"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Augusto Stoffel , Jim Porter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 05 21:49:17 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1leNWH-0007lY-2y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 05 May 2021 21:49:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34446 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leNWG-0002H1-5R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 05 May 2021 15:49:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49598) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leNUm-0000ry-TZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2021 15:47:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]:42873) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leNUk-0004F1-MI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2021 15:47:44 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id j6-20020a17090adc86b02900cbfe6f2c96so1462090pjv.1 for ; Wed, 05 May 2021 12:47:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y98p2u2bTKIXTF61wtVR3Ov/fvicYdtCOlrbYKu0iQM=; b=jJ1a2n0xssL/YMbcyHb9yhqCPMi0YMl623R0L24eGj/3s870jhqDmDllvTFpfe3kTo 9keDShwPIO/HPNaVQfOCloLgPjg/NUaVusXqC41UgnifHGDx77csqb55SFqjdGMhLzy6 fJfKq3mIDvriafcsh+g4rg2y38/+xpMEEm3N0exd/gY4Wzdx89oN/EzciqKUsURE7PSV zJ1YUhYGMylvWQP/Gkzbt02FNyx7o1TS7fMzyJcE2mXN763zlGEZzzC/AuuDLJEEWe9g lq43csiwsIM888NuKsOYx+fGpS86xUjGCxLAkISrHFi3hwm4wcdRehEcYO+cuH8tGvCq 8/Mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y98p2u2bTKIXTF61wtVR3Ov/fvicYdtCOlrbYKu0iQM=; b=a2A7eqD307nc5XBKHK8NyaOnNnV/9vbg5+TzPIRft1U50E15BQpZlXjdDWZKfahfJ/ dRqI+3dfWge1wckpuwaldGFMOaS2zIfRjdar9UiuiWA7RzDJBvhSO+U7+jIQturmE3IB rxqx85OvZ8agTmCF6OhIm7nFbeyl3uvG5Qy7GNtEVQZf0erM+Chz6hXsf1mcysTQWxNU hcFpBz97qUrso26/x2+LU6dheAXm/0QTxkEEIpDN8gUWkDJ2Ghizv5Kw5/Aol1FfL11j C/xHZOeCS+rX+06z05+i9zvlsNQDwtzm5RqILHcLrtl9RjXNkPPii4KHJT5VvdWEWGDB wTUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ns+BI+/w40lsXUS/n7qeblbeHliwfxCsiO3E6JsIzTLdhwEZI SyIYY64F8qPaD0ppHbKpQNwcAfccQ/QnqecUrsM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyt86fQFU5+RP196+dl1CbioB+7L0f3iwULBcfmQwhjhNbQ6p0dn/z+DWO9kqaiNi0LubCtvpbxO7V2H7pSoVU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:30c3:b029:ee:b387:4e10 with SMTP id s3-20020a17090330c3b02900eeb3874e10mr725317plc.41.1620244061141; Wed, 05 May 2021 12:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 5 May 2021 14:47:40 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87fsz1zmhv.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1031.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268927 Archived-At: Augusto Stoffel writes: > In normal typography you are free to choose how much space to add > between lines, but the horizontal condensedness is a fixed > characteristic of the font. In a sense, you are free to choose vertical spacing however you want. But a lot of time and effort has been invested into figuring out how to choose line height (leading) wisely. It is generally a good idea to try to adhere to such best practices. In body text, horizontal spacing is generally determined by the typeface itself. However, in certain situations we do need to use kerning, and even tracking (letter-spacing). So I don't exactly understand why you consider this more of a "fixed characteristic" than vertical spacing. For me it is almost the other way around: you set the line height (leading) depending on variables such as the x-height of the font, column width, etc. And then you tend to never change it anywhere in the document (book, website, etc.). Whereas the horizontal spacing might indeed vary in different paragraphs and lines. (In print production, it is very common to change the letter-spacing (tracking) by as much as 10 % in an entire paragraph, for example to avoid "widows" in a book. For small caps the guidelines of one large publishing house that I've read recommends 60 % tracking as a *minimum*.) > It seems to me that for monospaced fonts the vertical condensedness is > pretty much fixed by the font design as well. > > For instance, in monospaced fonts the descender of "g" tends to look a > bit squished. This is a compromise; if the font designer wanted to make > the font vertically more sparse, they might as well have given the > descender a bit more room. I agree that monospaced fonts are often designed to work even in situations where there is no extra leading. That doesn't mean that this is the optimal choice for such fonts. A font designer does determine the x-height of the font, but this is not the only variable in putting characters on screen. Whoever does the final design will still have to chose the line height. Here is a long quote from /The Elements of Typographic Style/ by Robert Bringhurst, as food for thought: 2.2.1 Choose a basic leading that suits the typeface, text and measure. Time is divisible into any number of increments. So is space. But for working purposes, time in music is divided into a few proportional intervals: halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths and so on. And time in most music is measured. Add a quarter note to a bar whose time is already accounted for and, somewhere nearby, the equivalent of that quarter note must come out. Phrasing and rhythm can move in and out of phase - as they do in the singing of Billie Holiday and the trumpet solos of Miles Davis - but the force of blues phrasing and syncopation vanishes if the beat is actually lost. Space in typography is like time in music. It is infinitely divisible, but a few proportional intervals can be much more useful than a limitless choice of arbitrary quantities. The metering of horizontal space is accomplished almost unconsciously in typography. You choose and prepare a font, and you choose a measure (the width of the column). When you set the type, the measure fills with the varied rhythm of repeating letter shapes, which are music to the eye. Vertical space is metered in a different way. You must choose not only the overall measure - the depth of the column or page - but also a basic rhythmical unit. This unit is the leading, which is the distance from one baseline to the next. Eleven-point type set solid is described as 11/11. The theoretical face of the type is 11 points high (from the top of d to the bottom of p, if the type is full on the body), and the distance from the baseline of line one to the baseline of line two is also 11 points. Add two points of lead (interlinear space), and the type is set 11/13. The type size has not changed, but the distance from baseline to baseline has increased to 13 points, and the type has more room to breathe. The text of the book you are reading, to take an example, is set 10/12 x 21. This means that the type size is 10 pt, the added lead is 2 pt, giving a total leading of 12 pt, and the line length is 21 picas. Continuous text is very rarely set with negative leading, and only a few text faces read well when set solid. Most text requires positive leading. Settings such as 9/11, 10/12, 11/13 and 12/15 are routine. Longer measures need more lead than short ones. Dark faces need more lead than light ones. Large-bodied faces need more lead than smaller-bodied ones. Faces like Bauer Bodoni, with substantial color and a rigid vertical axis, need much more lead than faces like Bembo, whose color is light and whose axis is based on the writing hand. And unserifed faces often need more lead (or a shorter line) than their serifed counterparts. Extra leading is also generally welcome where the text is thickened by superscripts, subscripts, mathematical expressions, or the frequent use of full capitals. A text in German would ideally have a little more lead than the same text in Latin or French, purely because of the increased frequency of capitals.