From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 20:28:58 -0600 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34656"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Alan Mackenzie , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 21 03:29:51 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tDwx4-0008rT-82 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 03:29:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDwwK-00048k-Cj; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:29:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDwwI-00048U-I9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:29:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDwwG-0004dB-Rz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:29:02 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5cfaa02c716so487007a12.3 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 18:29:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732156139; x=1732760939; darn=gnu.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a5vXOq7Gp3/+3mzDrKFlA9siwCVqnFnnUEE//ddgzhc=; b=WhIxXaraRAyEN6fETzpYppP/yQN6JtJz1hxLxq+ga+W7+iIWVgJNpaFOt3ohId4Dht iAcotonoKoDp/QaQYUQyegSa/nF4bmReLgg7JVNFueDqEXCGHD5G3GoQsV7rqqaRCkio IFO5Ao2aR9C0ks+reOoMGyxOPoI6NcFb/iyAU9uM79lBZEolBFldo2j9yZ00vW7GxTO5 PfoNtkDNbpfi6F28Nl+UBM4OE8hI0vIb7HMsK7iAPQ+40mjuReEial0Hc4ZUsjAY0jyc BGJ8EHswe/M/kv5vjL7XYnyrpJTUqOWxWSX+6XjJL2o8c46KnxYQjAXlpKnTAaXLDIDN 6U4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732156139; x=1732760939; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a5vXOq7Gp3/+3mzDrKFlA9siwCVqnFnnUEE//ddgzhc=; b=NDIkGTwq4hQPVhI1XntP/PDoiM5FwMYJrzKMwAmDC9rAVysKMUkcR6BMqbWIcEEusk bJ5UWms8dP2SkFtJACfpFrfsfb+cQeBNGebd5PIpQf0apzWFowddgA7zdlZ+zk8mgoq6 21yZLrC8jxs8ion27+5+MAppxLc9YzFWBSxRQNYrRRasTxSx9ypLyKFlBT76FcJifk7Z JMXipj55etcXTDIA6K26PwwyWK1NFYKKEisfvyDwq0DcRjcpqYwi8FHLi8Eunysk1NuH UIylfBZA8xIrql91IkDcN9Ua8R1x6eKufUutoISLERWrX2xxMVRrH2v1YtoBkmKEP1Z6 xzcQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWqQoKJsEeldgPE33vSopeBRhLptSjOC9Fy6cS4Snm3VcYWlpjASJnpab+mDK7FA+qoaXkQrhiXCtF0Iw==@gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YylF/vcT2X9QXse7qDxXfRiyatWBHdWKhgmq4ppiC4vj2J9509k OCREdbQsrb4gU+u5szMH/xo5NpiXJNMxQDYmv0CB/QUURtyRLNaSBq5N9zBI0Zak5YkM8RsXrMr 9HOFD6eKnXCcsJpfhJdWDFumSfqB7hQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvr45C/ZQgHwJ48KUjYxhydI1gEknkkgPlgqu/dOxODAIX1ziWfOqiJ8JJ8X8t jndh9yvd2OaLqDHHY818JASaZ6e5xRIht X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFROcqD9vAAx+epyuqGiDPQLqvkWPl0i7RVJUNd+XQwZ7Wsm8tHJ7qjU6iTGqHBAl/DTm27B05Ef9F+UEt34q4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:27d0:b0:5cf:6592:4680 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5cff4c43ad2mr3614095a12.17.1732156138644; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 18:28:58 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 20:28:58 -0600 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::531; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x531.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325535 Archived-At: Hi Alan, Alan Mackenzie writes: > The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's > symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes > without informing me, much less consulting me. That makes my position as > CC Mode maintainer here untenable. That is highly regrettable. You are a valued member of our team, and it's sad to see you go. > These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current > preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc. In > certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and > auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify > C Mode or C++ Mode. Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in > auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of > auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode. >From my point of view, we are still in early days when it comes to the new tree-sitter modes. For starters, we do not recommend them by default, and some language modes are also not yet ready for prime-time. I'm not even sure that a majority of distros ship the feature in a useful form yet, but I didn't really check. AFAIU, the purpose of `major-mode-remap-alist` is to provide a mechanism to respect what users want. Where there is disagrement, it concerns the technical details of how to best achieve that, and to which extent we should set things up automatically based on indicators such as the user actions "running a mode", "loading a file", or "running a command". But the feature has teething problems. My understanding was that we agreed in Bug#74339 that the situation in Emacs 30 is already better than in Emacs 29, and that we will continue working on this in Emacs 31. For example, it has been suggested that we should replace the automatic setting of `major-mode-remap-defaults` with an entirely new command like `foo-ts-mode-prefer`, that would be used as the canonical indication that a user wants to use the tree-sitter mode everywhere. There surely exist other options that we could evaluate also. For this reason, I hope that there is still room to reconsider your decision to resign. > Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus > is at the heart of why I am resigning. These changes have caused Emacs a > lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors, > including me, extra work and difficulty. Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde > character. On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always > ready to help others with technical questions. On the other hand, as > mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike > Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing > is. This is where I have to disagree quite strongly. I find the charges directed at Stefan Monnier both unfair and one-sided. I fail to see which of his actions or words that could possibly warrant such a negative interpretation, or that would justify assuming any ill intent. I have to agree with Eli. Although it would, in hindsight, certainly have been better to discuss these particular changes in more detail in advance, I don't see that he has done anything very unusual or different from what most other core contributors do on a routine basis. I also do not appreciate where it veers into ad-hominem, such as talking about Stefan M's character, etc. That is strictly off-topic here, as you well know, and does not reach the usual high level of standard that one would expect from one of your posts. Can we please all remember that we share the same goal here; that we all want to help advance Emacs and free software? > I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel. I intend to carry on > maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC > Mode issues which arise in Emacs. Please post these to > bug-cc-mode@gnu.org. > > It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers > remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project > all success in the future. Thanks for continuing to maintain CC-mode, and likewise. I hope that you will seriously consider the idea to reverse your decision to quit Emacs development. It would be much better if we could find a way where we can all continue working together. I'd suggest giving the idea at least a couple of days to fully consider, though I'll of course respect your decision either way. Meanwhile, if there is anything I can do to help improve things, please feel free to reach out. Thanks again for all your work on Emacs.