From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 20:50:54 -0800 Message-ID: References: <831qb45fog.fsf@gnu.org> <50A7AFED-DA37-4212-9ED1-7D906C34B6B2@traductaire-libre.org> <83o7e51bws.fsf@gnu.org> <83mstp11sz.fsf@gnu.org> <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13552"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jean-Christophe Helary , vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Po Lu , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 03 05:52:36 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rKtF5-0003Ef-KR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 05:52:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKtDe-0006A0-SP; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:51:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKtDc-00069d-Vn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:51:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKtDX-0002U1-KO; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:51:04 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50e7c6e3c63so7000864e87.3; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 20:50:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704257455; x=1704862255; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WOba+P7bZ+4UZqH7e6vGk97T3YemQPlXhyb9YvhG1QA=; b=QMZkJUYkm31xr3+gBTQ40pWJj3tTbMJuTdSvGFh3k24HufimL1LUB3SoWmTLwOcDIx pQl6PL5gsH6ym4wJ2qDyQyguuQzf5U1+aWnUrAgg+rfJ0xL+o0vjNCiz6I3D4F9Ua1Z+ BWLHpm81mjjHMx2LOvF7k7z6wreXFby8gSHps3c0xmydIO83BANKtSPL665XmJqGxzCq M0dbx0nuzXgJ7K6aXWkT02EHLkVSCyiQLpBmBgVlHAg7SxCkjzTyC6JTOajk8voaEbEK +Y5nxIsXoZhMDQ8qtU31ahAsFyByCj2yREj5LwQqJBXNP+CpW3tY02eI15Ov+qwuQzR3 nOzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704257455; x=1704862255; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WOba+P7bZ+4UZqH7e6vGk97T3YemQPlXhyb9YvhG1QA=; b=v1OkLnsciaGWB/rznLlKaRQKiwq6u2VuhDXI3wfprGlTppddSgTFq5uBG67A0RWuAY +p8a6jrHz4DSjwlZM7hrtIlGcgLARPT4nLThjbz76eutlwTX6LnXjyDXTcXW/Oz4qBfk Q61rT+1hKHTGtf9Vvi3p5Jd/mRNrEZv315Bm2S/iKe9no1kBwSLYnPKzy/za24rKAT9Z G4q5eZPLqWRiZdOsAxdUMZMYdPNIOw+S+/1n3GWuCoVnr2Plva0ZlI4X8daB+qA9U7CT AyCytKufjD/sOT5PX/oGe/w9dqBg8r3T8yMpAMmNsxTQcqH+4bKz0w54G1YjP49HNyzO gHgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz4lbolLkrLZCSMBA2i7L18Yq/Y7e0etML+P3GIIfQxsb99woYX R8fYQF8NI+JdZYGCCvR3G0Gko6tNcK173x1INvU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGVTsx5Qo/XrLggwT0jLC4n6asj+clTJGFF0BzUOzHqZdSyw4zFReLgs6G9xgtoZ03KX5i+abPBJbcNML6a7dg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:2c90:b0:50e:7b0e:4b80 with SMTP id dw16-20020a0565122c9000b0050e7b0e4b80mr4792128lfb.267.1704257455111; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 20:50:55 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 20:50:54 -0800 In-Reply-To: <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314480 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > The manual of most interest to our users is the user manual, with the > Lisp reference manual a close second, and if we balk at translating > these two, the purpose of translating the small fry is defeated by the > certainty that their intended readership will already have read > documentation in English. It is exactly the opposite, in fact: you start with the small fry, and work your way up from there. Few people start a project like "let's translate the ELisp manual", whereas some might say something like "let's translate the ERT manual". Then they get confidence and move on to bigger tasks. > What's more, there is a translation of our user manual being circulated > over the Internet _right now_ on sites bearing no relation to us: > > https://crowdin.com/project/emacs-manual-chinese It would have been much better if that had already been copyright assigned to the FSF and merged into Emacs. > there's no reason to believe that merely providing accommodation for a > translation will magically increase interest in its upkeep to a level > sufficient to make it sustainable. > > Maybe we should leave aspiring translators to author translations of our > manuals at their own pace. It's no great loss if users have to search a > little, and will save us from ever distributing outdated manuals or > concerning ourselves with rescuing them when (not if) interest in them > diminishes to a level where it is not anymore possible to update them in > tandem with changes to their source documents. We don't need to "magically increase interest" for this work to be useful, however. An outdated manual in a language you can read is infinitely more useful than a bleeding edge one in one that you can't. We just have to make sure to date it or say which version it covers. Furthermore, even a halfway house gives a starting point for someone to continue the work later. We have huge number of potential users that do not speak English fluently to the level where they're able to read our manuals. Thus, translating manuals to other languages has strategic importance, if we want to promote Emacs and free software. Therefore, I think that we should not take a defeatist stance here. While we might currently lack the resources to lead the charge, we should not discourage people interested in doing the work. On the contrary.