From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:56:42 -0500 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32639"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: John Yates , Howard Melman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 08 00:57:34 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lUH78-0008Nd-Dm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 00:57:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56030 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUH77-0006ga-FW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:57:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33872) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUH6N-0005ps-VY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:56:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]:33526) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUH6L-0007sK-Hx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:56:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id t22so116pgu.0 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:56:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=efAIUZWR9X179rXudsPI64YtOMQPX8uWy0KpMuijlug=; b=vaPkgnxUc34d9440Hc3lYZ/8jgXZKEWVdDstVZnVrqEE+zI+CBJjCuqAH2OzC4p/8W pbMKiEkWHokxgS20zONmulk3/Srq3feH3A3+f0rhSEu5XDfp8C+sDXiTcMu9Lnoy0ha3 v2LCCVNN3q+B9Bbbcwrti9syRNEu463aET4uBlWHrL7tz9l/963OvOljFmWbyk7lIoCt V80D5dCQCyEuU3xsHo+kdjg4+rvMbU9/enHpOv4xPsOKQw5CXU+Ixuja0PXV60koUsQE RinmzwFbJsJzFV696JnT6zqb/YvBQ/H3vO4Z2bE5o1jZ9EVPh7wAdD/yjVahlzRGjquQ zScg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=efAIUZWR9X179rXudsPI64YtOMQPX8uWy0KpMuijlug=; b=C4+9uJ0wvgUZpjHD0921jTqqiDe2iAdFrWr+n5jouvK+yD3TcnPKHv3WAvSGfq6z4g bTEh3L56Mnk7IIVLbQuMJruZX6sx+a0kylYnasPkQtYNTaPygcFjzSrm16gSrJe8NSv3 Du4kwuo5IGNvsALpjxWM7CIzw2YGAacmMTOsgHYCdyMgsxIQsyeAxdoYDCYCObDzuF4R 0MFleoy5RUI/nEP9obQc8Jgi/hp7PxE10UKlAWDGFWtgMNfSdrADW+vnBtP+I78OCccx 5mfnoU7d/pb4YzFh8ZZiK32IUSBxSvbRG88rv+e4XAVnPe8FLyQ8PJWE/CjahKCfkD7x 7sbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XICKHaTzMRCYDcbPKwQ2xQOtZad8bE5ShkD8oFbGGnIAr4aBd bHkcaalDpg+WymWpJO3WJ1JsCvuWHCX+aw5IVtA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwEbyvtHsAb2hWD96I0KTUhNrPhlZSdhUUtlmTsF0YkM7dzxL6Mh51CYpPA6O47es6S6Zts7NytIwbV5BdOL8o= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4046:: with SMTP id h6mr5226862pgp.345.1617836202777; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:56:42 -0500 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267583 Archived-At: John Yates writes: > Meta comment: I find it much easier to internalize > commands for which I am offered an obvious mnemonic. > I do not know if doing so is one of your goals, but > if not might, I suggest it? That would include using > some form of highlighting to call out the mnemonic. All things being equal, yes a mnemonic is better. There are different kinds of balance one can strike in a text like this. It is not necessarily a very easy text to write, as there are many variables at play; it needs to be precise, brief, understandable, skimmable, etc.. I will think a bit about your suggestion, but a priori I would suggest proceeding along these lines: 1. First, find a working, brief text with the above mentioned qualities. 2. Later, look it all over and see if it is possible to add mnemonics if/where they are missing without compromising the other aspects too much. 3. Perhaps even stylize the mnemonics (I'd use a subtle color for this).