From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:30:04 -0500 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2811"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 11:30:45 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lab6D-0000eK-Nv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:30:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40452 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lab6C-0007GH-Qb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 05:30:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46092) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lab5c-0006qC-NS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 05:30:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180]:33347) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lab5b-0003mL-5I; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 05:30:08 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-f180.google.com with SMTP id t22so2906888pgu.0; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:30:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KszMZcFYGeawxov7jCzkpsJ9S1ahlhY7D2QfC9lehSc=; b=Qccc0lFwwoGBwYgErKRQyfbHdTH4+1uVBVtn+VeEI+RtnlU8Y5Q9FWowuazKs6Rvxw 87K3ue3qHaWZ5ltdHV/FDKsV6HRXJwduD9KinfpXuepP7jAl5Oc2oVQ+L0Y8+LK/w1vk Dmii7VHjlqG8H4mng4buC66iCbsamz03XNvKLv6u+gVZHnA4Sz8pvB/bdFqkMikz2R8P 7SuKv0xWz/rMdJA/tNCWD8sKv12cuwrT4HZ/TODVxVDYS9ncEDf8JcBbjgc96lx1lHkE QvMhtb8y7/lfXz+GAvGEIdL7eXlDRIMA6iwQke1y737TKPwufB+5RZzDloJurv/ogFSM tevw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FFGiuDJYa6nK06tOuetu6YzxXcjrL+De9vCsz9mypWstdIA+Q LqDipJX/tFg5b45jn9XJd8eM//buUp7nqcG/wdwE4N/N X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLU1pXD6IN2IWeotvq7TxS5DI8+k2P15vo8VWaEEGvNBrOrPEcEKSC8RV4zqGQ2eSckm2jKTLtb1GFpKXqZcs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:828f:0:b029:200:6e27:8c8f with SMTP id s15-20020aa7828f0000b02902006e278c8fmr12330697pfm.44.1619343005524; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:30:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f180.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268362 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > I don't see any good way around this. This is basic Emacs > terminology, for which we did everything we could to document and > clearly explain what we mean. The way I see around it is to change that terminology. >> I would prefer that would just be printed as such, >> everywhere. > > You can't, because not every keyboard has that key. And because users > still can confuse that with the BS (a.k.a. "C-h") key. I note that any keyboard I have ever seen or used has had a backspace key. It is of course not interesting to me what exact control codes that key has been sending on various machines over the years. When pressed, it has erased text backwards. Most other software seems to handle such keys gracefully and transparently. Why can't we?