From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 17:27:51 -0600 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9alw7nu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o8gdw4zt.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16209"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 22 00:28:49 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDy9R-0003YB-UJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 00:28:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51628 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDy9Q-0006ak-Ss for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 18:28:32 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47856) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDy8p-0006AA-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 18:27:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-f171.google.com ([209.85.215.171]:46622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDy8n-00072o-RB; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 18:27:55 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 75so9108704pgf.13; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qwnHii7I2IMLCj/bkHMvi9qLfX4sKrCBDlcXXvlzT1I=; b=YnKs2r7t49tZpImIs76uk+U78VRtSUV0+hr8evap/M29I82A1kPYRy2MTu2bCUv4wt fvjTkg2M25EreKU0LAZe25bBc0uX1PyVJOVXlhHolxDkCOpZpyTbLD4N8l9B/8/n+nYD 5H9/Hozu1993YXFESaJrscLBxSLCXhLuGxq+0p4dQk1P260zyM3FkxOB+nOhCKQo/YAY uGjMyC8/3zPr2dKE9zcGUZRbMZOnC1EAfAY73uojwLmrGpTFrGxSABF/xy2d/YaZacpl v9cDu3CiO2tWsa3T1a6xYyfbdAGbyrkMMp90O5/u6VzSlyQbKkBT7IyU80s4XM3xIWym MeSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533g0lEK5HxTlypfEA09S3Q8U/lQQl1WZHQi5sM0UB34eTFEPu2f u2M7Dqwaw6wlaGM/xBBP7JqJ4I+ZCdDzcQMFsm3cT4yj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1liHKeS6p1gMGUJB6PpN/EHBmgnDMLYdLj6AJPXHyd6c+lI5zxQGwc4a7uoLiLL1NQbeY3ehh9xWcZUZ+GYo= X-Received: by 2002:a63:e108:: with SMTP id z8mr17361959pgh.363.1613950071698; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:27:51 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 17:27:51 -0600 In-Reply-To: <83o8gdw4zt.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.171; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f171.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265445 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > So it _is_ about the order. But then I think we should discuss the > underlying principles, and then order the commands accordingly. > > The rationale for the order in the manual was to show the discovery > commands first, and the commands for focused help later. To be honest, I didn't yet think very hard about this problem. But sure, we can discuss it. Any suggestions or ideas are welcome. My preliminary thinking here is that we should probably start with something like `describe-mode' and perhaps `describe-bindings' -- things that are about the basic commands to find help about the task that the user is engaged in right now. Maybe together with `describe-key', and `describe-command'. Ideally, we would just copy the ordering in the manual. It would save a lot of work. But the Info node `(emacs) Help' puts the Emacs FAQ and `C-h p' very early, even before `describe-mode'. I don't think that is exactly what we want for the `help-for-help'. So we probably need to think a bit more about this, and how that screen will be used. >> I think it would be useful also to get feedback on introducing titled >> sections, and the overall visual appearance (including coloring the >> keybindings). > > If the aggregation is meaningful, I think having sections should be a > no-brainer. That is good to know, thanks.