From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys' Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:38:12 -0800 Message-ID: References: <831rd4romg.fsf@gnu.org> <83zgzsq7xn.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9afriqp.fsf@gnu.org> <83zgzjhvdn.fsf@gnu.org> <83a6rhxwah.fsf@gnu.org> <837dmlxspt.fsf@gnu.org> <834khpxr0s.fsf@gnu.org> <8335x8ybw9.fsf@gnu.org> <87czwageno.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <878s6xwngp.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27600"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 10 02:39:45 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lJnpA-00073n-GN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 02:39:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46528 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lJnp9-0006sK-JK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 20:39:43 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52506) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lJnnn-0006RI-VM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 20:38:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:39739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lJnnl-0007Ao-U5; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 20:38:19 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id lr10-20020a17090b4b8ab02900dd61b95c5eso4058611pjb.4; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 17:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5OQGR2GitZSkI6BaMPj7ocQ1Ky4rlUu1ePJ37ahlwDU=; b=m0IS7tkCarNSF78pgJhJ3WJefUs9T62I52vUGejbU/mRdTOFNcdwJG7Gfzr04f8Mh6 6B61s3gypMU8pvoWomJKqGNacrGw4dBI4o8yTOyRCQu/OM9zi6blpg1iYwEVuHY1gbiF rKBYvfmigLfUUaboquX8szEMaiIeelmMrxYrEAGYEecFy6Qq/tmUCxidn3XcQ4I+MVGq LM83k3hqnaME8wDqnonrbMTUSpBkFcguDLk5SOy+piV32tx8NVCbro4eH/2POqxHzVit RnLO9Tani6EpwNgQFl0hQ6JNuVubFH7KT/b1AH/zKnAgxDsesccP1k3x8M5XS3Pu2bwW +2yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530T6nKzZm2X1HcyVWYXmxz8gk/4CvY6ceufUwhiABppUzgvxgwU 5wZuICKF6b+ZPXnfik2Rbx+RLS8IEaUX7lUJSZs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrU/TVDvvB7ahAX4VuNFRNuo3b5mvVSK2G4x+pz/SkzOIPgGX+7vDU0CAZM1z6fw60IR1LKkjriEtTAu7ohzk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c249:: with SMTP id d9mr862176pjx.104.1615340293117; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 17:38:13 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:38:12 -0800 In-Reply-To: <878s6xwngp.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.216.54; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-f54.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266258 Archived-At: Juri Linkov writes: > I completely agree. I retained "grey85" that was used for foreground, > but it's not suitable for background. But OTOH, "grey95" is almost > indistinguishable from the default white background. The change is fine, but I have a nit/question: On my screen grey95 is clearly distinguishable while grey90 is too dark for comfort. You report something quite different from that, which makes me think that this is perhaps not simply down to taste or mere subjective opinion. Could this be associated with things like differences in luminosity of our physical monitors, brightness/contrast settings, X gamma settings and what have you? Is there a way to find an objective measure to decide the better default here? Or should we just make both of us slightly (un)?happy by setting the color to e.g. grey92, assuming that the mean between our findings is the most scientific we can hope to get and will work somewhat okay-ish everywhere, and call it a day? > GitHub and GitLab use "grey90" for light and "grey25" for dark, > so I changed now accordingly. BTW, where do you find "grey90"? They seem to use a lighter background than that on the pages I've been looking at. Here I see #fafbfc for keys, which is between gray98 and gray99, with an added outline: https://docs.github.com/en/github/getting-started-with-github/keyboard-shortcuts Here I see #f0f0f0 for keys, which is gray94, with no added outline: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/shortcuts.html > When trying to use the style :background "grey90" > :box (:line-width 2 :style released-button) > the look is much nicer, but at the cost of wasting more vertical space > for higher lines. The look of that is not too bad. It looks slightly dated perhaps (the latest trend is to keep things flat rather than fake 3D) but at least it is extremely clear. It is arguably a more user-friendly choice. I'm not sure that I notice any wasted vertical pixels (we are talking 1 or 2 of them or something like that, right?) but I didn't measure it. (This would likely look even better if we could allow for a pixel or two of vertical space between the keys to allow them more space to breathe. But I can't find any way to specify something like that, so perhaps that would require some C level changes so perhaps we don't want to go to those lengths. And if really want to dive in the deep end, I'd also throw in some padding and rounded corners...)