From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:40:35 -0500 Message-ID: References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10020"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Madhu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 13:41:35 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tESyc-0002SR-NW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:41:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESxq-000187-QV; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:40:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESxn-00017o-8a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:40:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESxj-00060N-1Q; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:40:42 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2fb49510250so24761291fa.0; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 04:40:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732279236; x=1732884036; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XSMKf36HPvSUXadLKPVT+IK+8nzvJQkeYmntcCnGITo=; b=Jo4fxN8ASCCNBJCwZzBBsEahWDNhltN4/qCPz5dYha4vwRkkcpcxk3554/QXYl4cTq iTWeEp2PQxmHFVtMJ2JrMUaJUqSC9pp8nRsKusKqf8ilbwWreOuhYPgoRc5ORjH1oyF3 VvUZXEOzAJJar+ApupFTyqCPFk6Oga+caYTQisFGYhxdRUeKSMBsHOJYiUbxs7aRaQKS OoFPAE7j3zlt6GUMsEIP1QQXg6IIRwyQwbSBlLOvHDYrulnnnqw83UDga9s1MqtqRWv/ p/NUfBk6hTNdf7Q121K6I7wBaX7+PrAVobKTK+EL+GSPs+olYp+Fj9LLaJiggFKbJSTd GQtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732279236; x=1732884036; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XSMKf36HPvSUXadLKPVT+IK+8nzvJQkeYmntcCnGITo=; b=d6nUHz+83VYMQxJzfm85kzz3x1roCFs24z3UknogII+2L2+Uz3QT5vfLHxuyMXlahN cNN01WAnbPYhZMTPlhbtKbhDbWOVt9EvLz+L0kWNAB94IGEwmEy8y4gaK5iLJV0xI3z3 JKu8uWlERQI0B7/PFgFCFC2Hfhso3JvLJrz7RHZ9H9MqQBTyoc2SsR4FLX77Br79NyFq D4DFVhyfdeh5B4WtfC4G6uNiDdpkMVMEW4uRA3maW6ZK/Ms0pdLos2HCOLDFLe/+b7EH nwYlOJj/3QletDDFYjk2p2rL6NmxJy7yeZVuBgdGt0yZ+f2FhsvIu/BWTpaCZ/Uq5nCM L6OA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyqlAfam1jH74Rl6kZoci7PxixmNIDSUu0nZGSAtH4ft9oITDqz DvT7vIHORmtoakySOJfNeiDNYjgxqxusy3Ywg8MMxQdoIxha67tBOb8gVX/PKKRv5sqGGd3wZF3 IwVy4ZBaeUfftS7wJgZcA81RjWIbCEg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctDy1Su3N72frY+WxU9IxA5KE3ZZFRXmR3Qnnx8sQ+kv1h08yACiisbyRiRa19 S/V4GCd9CZyc83w8l1bAbiQvmcoLHP+32FQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHpmb6hfcqOd/OK2djGARh8MhBMdqnIwXlPEO2Jix7hTByfEcycs7LOUaj/HLkrnZUizfKNeUkefri+tDgw+u4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1990:b0:2ff:6298:ecc0 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ffa7129767mr14981361fa.18.1732279235664; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 04:40:35 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:40:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::234; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x234.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325586 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Madhu >> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:54:01 +0530 >> >> The correct response to these complaints would be if Eli and the >> maintainers would reign in Stefan and address the genuine concerns >> rather than gerrymandering on with the present course. >> >> This again purposely misses the point and does not address the isssue >> raised by the resignation. That there are problems with Stefans >> intentions which are not as stated which are of concern to emacs >> development as a whole, these are being swept under the floor. There are >> repeated concerns that the way Stefan is leading development us >> destroying the value of core which RMS brought to us from the 70s. This >> is being set aside through bulldozering narrative. > > When we see such problems, they are _never_ swept under the carpet. > On the contrary, the reaction is usually immediate and quite harsh, > including (but not limited to) reverting the offending changes in a > non-negotiable way. > > The reason this didn't happen with Stefan Monnier is that at least I > don't see any particular problem of this kind in what Stefan does (and > did during the decades of his very active involvement in the project). > The Emacs model of development is that we completely trust leading > contributors to install changes without discussing them. This trust > works well and keeps our development moving forward very fast, > although sometimes there are good-faith mistakes, which then require > discussions a-posteriori, and sometimes (rarely) end up with changes > being reverted or radically modified. All of the leading > contributors, including yours truly, have sometimes, rarely, made such > mistakes. Stefan's record is not different in this regard from any > other's. The changes he installed in March indeed should have been > discussed more, but I don't expect us rejecting them as result. > Moreover, Alan himself made such a mistake when he installed his > cc-mode.el change back in May, the change which led to bug#74339, and > eventually to this sad result (because Alan staunchly opposed to > modifying his change from back then, even though the modifications > proposed to him would not affect the effect of his change in any way). > > So there's nothing here that requires any "reigning in", just the > normal practice of Emacs development, which hasn't changed in decades, > because we think it fits well the way this community is structured, > and the nature and the vast span of expertise needed to develop an > maintain Emacs. > > I cannot speak for Stefan Kangas and Andrea, but I'd be very surprised > if they didn't agree with what I say above. We definitely don't agree > that the many changes developed and installed by Stefan are > "destroying the value of core which RMS brought to us from the 70s." > Quite the opposite. > > So no, we are not "gerrymandering", and the reason we don't even > consider "reigning in" Stefan is because we see absolutely no problems > with his conduct, certainly no malice. And while it is easy to > bad-mouth our ways of leading the project "from the fences" by people > who are not really involved with the day in and day out hard work on > helping this community move forward, and never contributed anything > significant to that movement, the truth is very far from these claims. > You and Alfred, and even Po Lu, are well advised to tone down your > claims, and exercise much more humility when you post such vicious > personal attacks on Stefan and others. In case there is any doubt, I very much agree with everything that Eli writes here.