From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Entering emojis Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:43:05 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87cznths5j.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilxi7531.fsf@gnus.org> <875yth7bjr.fsf@gnus.org> <8335oltgyd.fsf@gnu.org> <837ddws6p5.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19246"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 29 16:47:08 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mgT9v-0004ri-RW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:47:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46712 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgT9u-0002kg-NL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:47:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47636) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgT65-0006XD-Q9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:43:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]:40744) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgT63-0007Is-Rd; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:43:09 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id l186so10087850pge.7; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:43:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g7O/irKkrgZRqZgHeUFWNl0/MWNEkpVS4Mht3jkDkts=; b=mX2+LNGIneu5a/WB6Xp47onqZp8zL3K5unKO5jG/fIswxZ4ud1K+hNuy+emBQHyKGV TojNoNjqqXyVtphO5zQt93sAMYRmCi30hspCv745KCuOepDLw6QfbYaRuyeJ1v7ZrjhA ErrEpwEMXWngcQekOtTA47QrQSmX9VjRV88XshdnkElNhNt3rEH74sQVJ4WfUCRmQk8k 8MdCupK0E6hN//oRQYnIz1m+0TUH2p50AI1ubULy1JCQ/+CZW16VK9NSCTK/DZqRZNkp KFb7jJRO2iUwQHzLsb3Tu6KFJDxjWcLFCVHge7rSIY5WYhkm0/OVxkBAPF8WLb1TIxv2 vpjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g7O/irKkrgZRqZgHeUFWNl0/MWNEkpVS4Mht3jkDkts=; b=Ova6WycVBJd3OFz7o2btAj3o8wgH0nnI6PG6esEtE9C9r0HIWDrPg4nLlAjC91GlN6 tNnMxEo/0olZCbbw9E76I8srNYh53EvqL7RIJ8vwuqYQ+F6B5Yerd53dAO7mqSSCbC48 kWxwgwOyaAv0pT9Y3A1KTWq5KsjxOFcaUnAepYdEcMgsfOiRGe9psvQ+pz2TQErTlACk p31UFVB945lDRCq5n9Q5rWxH/AL/lQq7+j8kcYOlXxocYEpKjwXE7yP8Jg/8OR+5N4nc BTwwpUAuD8VEZAwh5qJy8naV3hD/gWFIsgR/mwEkkw+JfYvh8aVD722mFufMAoo0r4wf oGrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KuRvnVnV1bVjPqEFoMul+HzN38RHCszpWu2dd0ovQNH7Hr0zs KrZCPb8PHrCzV9qR3K2RytTJPZAd0/EDjb+qD7+ilEy4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxU729sqaG1PsIFRizqOq07u5KWu1Jeb/oxnl/oT/0gbrT+IkBmEDJhFipotiNSYG8KMebmEkEsGGg4+BEibMU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:244d:b0:44d:c279:5155 with SMTP id d13-20020a056a00244d00b0044dc2795155mr11234111pfj.0.1635518586239; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:43:05 -0700 In-Reply-To: <837ddws6p5.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::533; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x533.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:278197 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > First, we don't yet have emoji-insert, it's only on master I suggest a change on master. > And second, the current behavior could be quite useful in the Emoji > case as well. For example, consider the case where you typed the male > version and you want to change it to the female version instead. Or > when you copy-paste the Emoji from some other text, then want to > change it in small ways. [...] > The behavior you suggest could be a user option, by default off, and > not specific to Emoji. Changing the behavior unconditionally, or even > making that the default of that option, makes no sense to me, since > the current behavior is very old, and I never heard any complaints > about it. Please note my complaint then. Although I'd like to not only complain but also more constructively propose a solution: I think that `delete-backward-char' should treat emojis as single characters by default. I find the current behavior far from ideal, and note that it is different from all other software I have seen. I also think it makes no sense. Having to type DEL five times to remove an emoji is to my mind clearly not the interface that most users will want. The UI we have now, and that you claim is superior, is much more fiddly and error-prone to get right than just running `DEL C-x 8 e' again. Emojis are similar enough to be tricky to tell apart that I can't see myself ever being interested in trying to do detailed modification of an emoji grapheme cluster by hand. YMMV. > And I submit that, as in many other situations in Emacs development, > we are jumping too fast to conclusions. I agree with the logic in your reasoning as a general proposition, but the above points still stand in this particular case. > What's the rush to make changes in unrelated functionalities just > because we were surprised by a TIL-like phenomenon, with hardly a few > keystrokes of experience under our belts? I see no particular rush to fix this. As soon as emoji-insert starts being more widely used, I expect that someone will report a bug about this (or complain on IRC and on Reddit, and perhaps write up a third-party package "fix-delete-emoji.el", etc.).