From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:04:05 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <90C1E75D-214A-464E-AA24-25CC8C220B3B@icloud.com> <83pnbabjok.fsf@gnu.org> <83y2px98we.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="7490"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, pcr910303@icloud.com, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 12 16:05:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVWp-0001bw-8d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 16:05:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41540 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVWo-00086M-9a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:05:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52610) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVVw-0007X7-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:04:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]:44570) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVVv-00088L-WD; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:04:08 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id o8so7011844ybc.11; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:04:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lG6JHDWyua2/953mIwrgE3TzInHDhA3taApCbPqZc+k=; b=oShM7ellMbEnUAzhVH5kp3QPrveAki8x0G8saE4FCJn/f4DC5ba52oKWrnKZui9Enc pjj/7WSgQ5fELC2y5R2l/glZLKLbs288CjHGwwLVK3dWbTRVHBCXJvDzVsVLhfz8cIXa hqfZRaSdl1t8TmuUERPMUA82lw7c/uyR3RyR6ntUill/qpZwBPhOTg6CqUNA0PHSy3F6 qG3QfTvYnJovPynL8tdAEwa78V07aTRe+rkWYWTkYTfhDSFnRboh8pJA5HtUN6L3AuQO 1lQrCPLHLHZIv2rVTPkqE6NbuJoovyFZFrvNNiIPpA0QIh2KDgI/XaLh1VP7ouYw5fEb vrVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lG6JHDWyua2/953mIwrgE3TzInHDhA3taApCbPqZc+k=; b=rC9UFwpmhD1QxG1ZCe/6W+g20kK+lPArdzDwPUNflIlVecZ7CMVyq0wotQmtPzIr+H bEkC8VIgX1wY4R1KI0OSGtZ6hqKwIR4jZHN1lUF6uiB4SSNTi0RQrVkHkTxbsHY7RuK0 apGT6IRFVSULuy3nuCIabU/cvUP0TlVUfAsA6a9NmCFxcwLqmF5bYY+iQUXs+fPfvPZ6 PBO9Ui+dfbaqX93CWTb3Jf3J62FowlZ5biui8LfDuUIGKuxs532zBR+guKYgLjMKXIzd Z20CId8VBgH+FsL1g0GAcm4bfHq9lo7X9cV9iBSMT/uvkEqZfmcgKgaaKr8ZImF+jk4d MpvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaGF4YRsUe3RWhcUTNtkdHJy0B4dD9ZFCYJoQ0pHw7fjEM2nDYX J6eCfMGAEggIaIWSwSrgakJcTegU4bCg8YpoWcS8oA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPsgMq5fi4JVtPgKLviOonsyfDQe332lbNWeSR+uBRw7oLu/1tLeb9VifKoWDo11Cb3amaF3vqs4eYIpgH3Vs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:86d0:: with SMTP id y16mr15561796ybm.309.1589292245718; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:04:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83y2px98we.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb33.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249968 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The main problem for me flows from the fact that we can't configure >> MELPA by default nor even recommend it prominently in the manual and on >> the website. > > I already asked why is this an issue. Emacs needs configuration for > many purposes, for example for sending and receiving email. There is > no need to have every wish of every user be available by default OOTB. It is a problem that basic functionality for several important use-cases is missing OOTB. Some examples have been given in this thread. It is also a clear drawback that we can't include nice-to-have functionality such as Magit (one of our "killer apps"). > Emacs lets you do whatever you want. You don't need any blessing from > the project. So then why do we ship any ELisp code in core? Or even provide a default configuration? AFAIU, we do that to improve the user experience. And here is a low-hanging fruit which would improve it tremendously. > But as a project, we have our conventions and standards, > and contributors are kindly requested to follow them when they > contribute to Emacs. Every project does that, and there's nothing > wrong with such requirements. Those requirements are meant to keep > the quality of Emacs high enough. We would not need to lower our standards by introducing "ELPA Contrib" or "MELPA-libre". We could still choose which packages to include, and the conditions for doing so. Best regards, Stefan Kangas