From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Why are so many great packages not trying to get included in GNU Emacs? WAS: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:07:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1wi7a8o.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdteybt.fsf@runbox.com> <87368wrvf5.fsf@yahoo.com> <86k126d83n.wl-me@enzu.ru> <83pnbyckvv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="102933"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Eli Zaretskii , Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 23 19:17:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRfTG-000Qfg-0U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:17:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33292 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRfTF-0006Np-2k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:17:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44968) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRfJm-0004AZ-Tz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRfJm-00071W-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-f172.google.com ([209.85.219.172]:35785) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRfJk-0006oI-8l; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:16 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id i2so3517980ybk.2; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=r2hp4eWgFRFepZ3W7FQLd1fW3rSr9h7sW65GlSOB5fU=; b=NmaNa8Aj5RQMz8N1F37D9Wr3uyKt6jWCax+0UKdFR+T4e4l6Qbsj7eKiebI6qnA3MV dOjDtoP8hBURTBr3me+nxgJfPARhBvWDBglLfRg8E5NktJtUUDZtuwAhHdT2BG4OqE0P T9wR82AAgIkwz8Fwf7patetsOVBa55iJhJZdvqKL6KUg5nCL5p1cnGyXkUmtstdl/9OU 62j9fHh5jJTYf0/lMaG6q1TxmorZP6e899OOd5GxZhw7VrjSyKeA1f3uLZF43aamj4ZT 8qS+tVmSoP3wGqAt0Dd1DgWRttv1RHgxRWhJvos7ZAC6kt2o3NXBF8lFUkHW+pctMHEs d16Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubgOrVvH8V7upFOdwLzDdPapwpDoxp6uCAeZZJXApEtICI9Wm93 BzFft9im0R2RiHgUJi28h+eQ1hDzd+pFMH2y/zZ5SVRquCU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIWXekBSAmgKWxKCzFIUuJZo7JunJt/pH6EWksiNlqzJ4h8I3po+dAyXK/OrncxGoV7rnzFU9LUSmk3OI1E5x8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c102:: with SMTP id r2mr9249980ybf.43.1587661634670; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:07:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83pnbyckvv.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.219.172; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-f172.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/23 13:07:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 209.85.219.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247605 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > And it isn't like packages are lining up to be included in Emacs, or > even "anointed" by it, is it? Boy, I'd like to be there. I strongly agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that this is an important strategic consideration for GNU Emacs. It's very unfortunate that there are so many great packages that are only available to a subsection of users willing or able to install third party packages. It's too easy for package authors to just throw it up on MELPA and be done with it, without realizing the many benefits of getting it into GNU Emacs. There would be some great benefits to having more deserving packages in core, or even GNU ELPA: - They would reach a wider audience. - We can do more to ensure they integrate well with all other packages. - We could consider enabling some of them by default. - We would have a world class team of Emacs Lisp hackers (in other words, emacs-devel) reviewing the documentation and code. - etc., etc. The reasons why package authors would not want to include it, on the other hand, could obviously vary. Some of the reasons I have seen are unfortunately very shallow: - Misconceptions about how hard it is to work with emacs-devel. - An unwillingness to assign copyright to the FSF, seemingly often more due to inertia than any principled opposition. - Strongly ideological anti-FSF sentiments (often disguised as "non-ideological" or "practical"). I mean, that's my impression of it, and I'm not pretending that this list is exhaustive or even generally correct. But maybe we should think about how we can argue our case more strongly, and clear up at least some of the misconceptions. For example, we could make additions to the Emacs Lisp manual on why one would want to push to have their package included. We could also explain that they can have their code in GNU ELPA, or even GNU Emacs, and host a development repository anywhere they like, etc. Best regards, Stefan Kangas