From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 07:22:11 +0200 Message-ID: References: <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12554"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Yuan Fu , Daniel Fleischer , Richard Stallman , "Philip K." , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , John Yates To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 05 07:23:08 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMkcW-00036g-Fw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 07:23:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54434 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMkcU-00011f-FT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 01:23:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45886) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMkbs-0000Mj-70 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 01:22:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-f42.google.com ([209.85.216.42]:45857) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMkbp-0004CO-HL; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 01:22:27 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-f42.google.com with SMTP id f11-20020a17090aa78b00b0018e98a7cddaso2395278pjq.4; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+8e7f5ZxAhdPIdvhVj1EpI5p1DDVZRkO2qdNC/Vxs2k=; b=Kc49lyPgKXenu7Al2e6kMLu2/FhxNcMg5EvqWNJZNWbjifTI3b6gnwov2gd219RjiG mj3UlezKKrf5HiVvLKAduR5PvJ91zBqxbkShjvP3I/z+3rUDJvCw/4+KTAkIycD7R235 Z4cOmXc0ydfpmDt9gpxL8we+lU/jcY44Vp/WfiTTavIdItPh76ljYxHzI2FVj42JpdXX wHZGGY8J++OnE9BfSdGESlrQQIav3Fd5hM1tka6OyCyhSmciRIzHOdcQrBQFzTE65ofy LMELyHdK6j8p4+i/RVOjX6gADbvEEeqfOMQPCeSVi4Yn5FNjkTA7TO0tBlNzvt28FAfJ AMOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532442EhqNVdz/a+9tZLH3eSxNQM6zDwf7KlH/4AQWoSUc6f9ZVj QNGtLuY7T5c4y5bmJ0LSSayYIo4d3MsgjA3svdA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEddkvWp8U1oL5GS+XVGnqMXJGBg7k7K7D7604PSiWqBKG7LMfLnIjKROkuTtVNQa4HTeUM/6HtYtD/v+ebnk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:c412:b0:138:e681:fba4 with SMTP id k18-20020a170902c41200b00138e681fba4mr5460096plk.22.1630819342544; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:22:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.216.42; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-f42.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273989 Archived-At: Arthur Miller writes: > With other words, emacs devs already think that default options are sane. So I > don't think that wording here should be "enable sane defaults", but "enable > different defaults". For example enable "VSCode like defaults" or enable > "Eclipse like defaults" or something else. The wording "sane" might indeed come off as overly harsh on our own history, and by association the people that chose those defaults. I have no doubt in my mind that they were more or less the best choices at the time. It's just that the world looks different now. We don't need to bikeshed about a name before we have something more concrete, but FWIW: I don't like dragging other editors names into it very much, because I don't think that captures what this is or should be about. It makes it sound like they have something very desirable that we don't, or that we simply try to imitate them. In reality, if they do better on this or that, it is only because they had the advantage of starting from a clean slate. Emacs has no reason to make apologies for itself. We can support a UI more in line with current user expectations without reference to anyone but ourselves.