From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 06:45:48 -0300 Message-ID: References: <897ED591-43BC-4029-912A-917E5E9F6930@gmail.com> <87czlarhff.fsf@yahoo.com> <5D13C3C0-C4EB-4769-9685-25122DC9B8DC@gmail.com> <875yr2rfd1.fsf@yahoo.com> <369E183D-87EC-45AB-8352-9A780006561E@gmail.com> <87zgoeps3f.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078ef1a05d496454c" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7561"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 10:46:56 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xS4-0001nI-4y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 10:46:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38116 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xS2-0005fS-6Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:46:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53064) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xRC-0004v7-VU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:46:03 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::635] (port=41557 helo=mail-pl1-x635.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xRB-00045k-25 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 04:46:02 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id z3so23026898plg.8 for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 01:46:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m0Vut8lX8j5KZdFm/LAwAvtszlPT7ASZw7rvmMkb94E=; b=E2pBvM1BOxRRHo1Sc3xedGWbJNV0U8zwYqBLXZvwW1a5VjmcPg181dhfZuI3IOgr0T c7ekRqCS0HFhstDVaXXEliChfUUGA2nFpQ/b0ETcUP6bfkfnsCACQbdRog5y+w3qwny3 GJ2ng4iHy9PjRT0cyN5WCxN0Z42wwngDEBWFMlArQh/OCcxWlJLW6djqYqnWr3coLmZE hTjw71vV3LXSkcYy0v77JY83D3Ip3C++QQJS4D+ltHuhvEJt76ihd8ro0Ilh0C0UUBC3 k7J8aHwJt8LBB4XDOHZbhXGhA/wbKiWZFcxKcRlNA3Eftszt1ZauY5wbTN5iMPK11pks lwVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m0Vut8lX8j5KZdFm/LAwAvtszlPT7ASZw7rvmMkb94E=; b=OOEATRyfeAGrKEY/s5VO047YUUPHuiGyVwmDimreRAt8J+wk7C3B20Wx5aUl8Gob3Z q2I9qtEL0KGyk8J7sub7TsfqFuW/vNf3NPK8QAQZuhtEzJk6ztuVI2QEF/Kxck9xvnZB fSH9LQxqHza9K2PWNc8ihD989pdjGYPtdoPVFQD9hRMLmdPOGEiclJNyD5myFdC9gpbh T898RydzIzEtVfoGDtIxI55iO1uZNaE6l6Xl2a+Q7Kj5xgCHSCvGvhGsrjEo8yDyRnmY l7xNcHmM5xrEtOmC+FS8FsmCpelVC2xYWu7OvIWre20ByXnjHstrPPNAgyPlHw7VLGNA VkXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MxPVYRDvp3shCufoeRM3E7jetD8omGCo1UG7JYusgRnOJCx0z tz9blpjHeBU7ACU1PUjIpsm37ZRvG/ohhmRqQbU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzKoEblVHtCMTMj5vIu1RxSsnyQcspEUKImDMHP8vF4HCK5rWFVb58XPrqnoyOUKDUxcrw3C81rWcKpD113mbk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4cd1:: with SMTP id nd17mr38892276pjb.154.1641116759287; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 01:45:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::635 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::635; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x635.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 16 X-Spam_score: 1.6 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam_report: (1.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283873 Archived-At: --00000000000078ef1a05d496454c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 06:23, xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions. wrote: > Jan 2, 2022, 12:07 by casouri@gmail.com: > > > Maybe that=E2=80=99s true for some users. I had my fair share of strugg= le and > confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few lines of setq= , > global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more predicable than custom. > Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new Emacs users, so I don=E2= =80=99t > think we can make definitive claims. For example, I don=E2=80=99t think i= t is > unacceptable to expect a user to understand what does setq, global-set-ke= y > or xxx-mode means. > > ... > > It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom > and Customize described above that you don=E2=80=99t seem to mind. Aren= =E2=80=99t they > confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely confused and annoyed me > for a long time back then. > > > > Yuan > > > > 1+ > > This has also been my experience when starting out and for some others I > know. > In theory Custom system should have made things easier, but it didn't. > Later on when I understood Elisp better, I had some ideas as to why. > Basically > Custom is an unfinished system, it's code is not easy to understand, and = it > does not integrate with the rest of Emacs well, it especially does not > play well > with configuring things from init.el file. Until it is more polished, I > would be > hesitant to recommended it to newcomers, over doing a couple of setq's. > > +1 here too. What about including in the description of the package a screenshot an example of the generated init block as text, and explaining that your package is for the people who don't mind looking at the internal representation of the configurations, that looks like that?... Btw, one thing that works well for me is explaining to new users that _reading_ is very different from _writing_, and that they will need to to be able to read the configuration block in Lisp and understand _vaguely_ the meaning of _some parts_ of it... they do not need to understand it fully, and they don't need to learn to write Lisp themselves. Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev --00000000000078ef1a05d496454c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 06:23, xenodasein--= - via Emacs development discussions. <emacs-devel@gnu.org> wrote:
Jan 2, 2022, 12:07 by casouri@gmail.com:=

> Maybe that=E2=80=99s true for some users. I had my fair share of strug= gle and confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few lines o= f setq, global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more predicable than cu= stom. Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new Emacs users, so I don= =E2=80=99t think we can make definitive claims. For example, I don=E2=80=99= t think it is unacceptable to expect a user to understand what does setq, g= lobal-set-key or xxx-mode means.
> ...
> It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom = and Customize described above that you don=E2=80=99t seem to mind. Aren=E2= =80=99t they confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely confused and= annoyed me for a long time back then.
>
> Yuan
>

1+

This has also been my experience when starting out and for some others I kn= ow.
In theory Custom system should have made things easier, but it didn't.<= br> Later on when I understood Elisp better, I had some ideas as to why.=C2=A0 = Basically
Custom is an unfinished system, it's code is not easy to understand, an= d it
does not integrate with the rest of Emacs well, it especially does not play= well
with configuring things from init.el file.=C2=A0 Until it is more polished,= I would be
hesitant to recommended it to newcomers, over doing a couple of setq's.=


+1 here too.

What about i= ncluding in the description of the package a screenshot an
example of th= e generated init block as text, and explaining that your
package is for = the people who don't mind looking at the internal
representation of = the configurations, that looks like that?...

Btw, one thing that wor= ks well for me is explaining to new users that
_reading_ is very differe= nt from _writing_, and that they will need to
to be able to read the con= figuration block in Lisp and understand
_vaguely_ the meaning of _some p= arts_ of it... they do not need to
understand it fully, and they don'= ;t need to learn to write Lisp
themselves.

=C2=A0 Cheers,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Eduardo Ochs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/#eev

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