From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 21:10:03 -0300 Message-ID: References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87tuwabm5a.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33716"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 02:11:10 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kF4kY-0008gk-AU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 02:11:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45630 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF4kX-0002mZ-CW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 20:11:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF4jj-00020e-Te for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 20:10:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]:40818) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF4jh-0004ri-Na for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 20:10:19 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id j34so1811366pgi.7 for ; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 17:10:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R5SxcWtKGLO7JWC8+Kn1IUJS+5xreOD2v/mP3RVmlsw=; b=ZwmJy0bgPfXi3aX9r+BFaNfbGxhK2dQsKaQqbWu4V5B8nn8jaKL0ZLCSSQI/lPT7Ur 8FKkbOQ6PCAW5ZMaMK9kB1cPiLqovKUnogXNulUj7cDqxU22gZ5LG4lGv9+CdozwGipP PGDru4HYlRuoD5di00Ps3d6+yzI07AY0r3sXLxR0O5yQ21rPORcnz7l9uG3xjkLeUHla eCe3mIDgCJQQ1ijsxo+fdUjYtE4ogkgP44t8I+Wc3ZQpJAFfT62FtfdVDgtqPOaIZF1O P2d6VhcHpQSb1FjYsmUQtEVmd09HtKF+HXdsFJup/SD3wQDnICX0y2DYbEek24wfB7A8 i6BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R5SxcWtKGLO7JWC8+Kn1IUJS+5xreOD2v/mP3RVmlsw=; b=Faf81qIcv3/knbTMf4vASp+BoSjH7iLMdPEo1yzKC6vF4YqVV29PY9i+H2mx+AuFos j/Hj2VOV3II4k6sG6FwFbdSsLqnPIzjSoz9hgc9OEYi1rB9Verg8TRL2mBaU8UHoEbfa rEpIsB606zIQ26BJlF4WwHx/VyD5lLg62EREQpvmTwtdFBaxm8lIXyx5kxq9cENC9N3r l+PatCZUg6MMC5xFxsVglzHCPBzTpB84rzibrxYUwzblZ2g8k1b8fMJt18v3BDO2r5rP sygeWPjiv9E++cw/qBF0BoD2W9Xq2PyWrsWOGJApTw151MHEU6X9Z/tB5xdzeJ4DbI3Z h4fw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325eOtxM8P+24FdBIpCtC3vi94fGpFkE36c7XV01f5NcX2Ut+bR bBTqx139/97dDWXhYTaWlg6mIJVT8SmwXkBGWJQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzj3i2OznS0gMaLQfR2v2sW8fYuyExluPKXWbmMW6kZZ/DAhOCqx1aoQIchu7Q6ZyAavOYeQGF+ca4U1Dvp3Vc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5c23:: with SMTP id q35mr14660233pgb.28.1599437415353; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 17:10:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87tuwabm5a.fsf@gnus.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254599 Archived-At: So we all want this modern-ish "layer" for Emacs. If I haven't missed anything, the main ideas on how to activate it are: 1) it will be the new default, or 2) it will be toggled by a command-line option like "-m" (btw, is this viable on M$ Windows?), or 3) there will be a button in the splash screen that toggles it, 4) it can be toggled via Customize, 5) it can be turned on by a built-in command like M-x use-the-new-super-cool-rad-layer. In my not-so-humble-at-all opinion the recommended way to install this new layer should START as a progn. The developers' page should say something like: at this moment the modern-ish layer is still experimental; to try it copy the 5-line "(progn ...)" below to an Emacs buffer, put the cursor after the close-parenthesis in the last line, and type C-x C-e - this will execute the whole (progn ...), and this will install the super-cool-rad-layer and make it the default: (progn (Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetuer adipiscing elit) (Ut purus elit vestibulum ut placerat ac adipiscing vitae felis) (Curabitur dictum gravida mauris) (Nam arcu libero nonummy eget consectetuer id vulputate a magna) ) This reminds me of a discussion that happened in February in the Lua mailing list, about "we need a super-user-friendly distribution of Lua that comes with all batteries included". In one of my messages to that discussion - at http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2020-02/msg00036.html - I said: "In my way of seeing things, making a package manager that makes developers super-happy [1] is a pre-requisite for [2] having a distribution for all OSs including Windows that beginners find easy to use. And [1] can be done in 100 or 200 programmer-hours with expertise that we already have, while [2] needs 10000000000 hours at least, plus black-belt social skills, lots of money to hire external people, and luck." I am very passionate about the idea that in environments like Emacs "developer-friendly" should come before "user-friendly". If there are people who insist that even in the development stage we should NEVER offer the progn-ish way of installing the super-cool-rad-layer I would be overjoyed to hit them several times with my ten-feet pole. Just my 2c, sorry for not being more active here, cheers, etc =), Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 19:01, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > Instead of discussing new, radical defaults (which I don't think are > going to go anywhere, because annoying older users isn't nice), we could > just put a button on the opening splash page saying > > Current theme: Classic. Click HERE to get the super-cool rad one. > > And then the HERE could enable whatever the kids these days want, and it > could be ALL the mod cons. > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no > >