From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: An anonymous IRC user's opinion Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 09:57:20 -0300 Message-ID: References: <19ed5fa4ec0d3be9cfddc92ce2c78e47f2a3efb6.camel@octave.org> <87y133u4bf.fsf@web.de> <87ttdru0vo.fsf@web.de> <87ploft00b.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37432"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jordi_Guti=C3=A9rrez_Hermoso?= , Emacs development discussions To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 05 14:58:24 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sx4Ma-0009Wb-JA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 14:58:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sx4Lo-0000c6-Ge; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 08:57:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sx4Ln-0000bw-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 08:57:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw1-x1130.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sx4Ll-0003ua-Dt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 08:57:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-x1130.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6e2e508bd28so632397b3.2 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 05:57:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1728133052; x=1728737852; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=FROvzvorCWa53kp2tIj4B6OHRTH0XqoCVZCcHe9w2fE=; b=YO5i/b0PswOJ/yGusjOGY0cC3QxTlcLQlGKw+MNnjiaFXY7imOD+JHvVewviPlXn8f ICwog8yEp2z/ciPR3B3wBI4CDaL2jaKJE4+J7YvA6eoxuh+oshLdX2tPK2WRquEtEzT8 T4/2Uo0SIbK09IGx3WQOfd2KKM1u6CHmPn0VxSWbp/AqwOORpgw01Ek3br/LzQGWzFjw KDrtMK2p/QpKmqoiotDto+TewwjB3J367cHjOWvoBsP1yLBBP53z5R205g14zmZakDzK 1wlVB+/0PG9aMTZuKc8OIqRUEKMi0AdFRmxjJSKHPVXE0gC+xGnhk+pJUWbq+mut1ypg nigg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1728133052; x=1728737852; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FROvzvorCWa53kp2tIj4B6OHRTH0XqoCVZCcHe9w2fE=; b=FeKRK7w7ZyYbtkr0vok8+SehdjCDQAXk3wMkYTf4YGokoFnINhVIKXQHMfY3FOfNNZ EofClVr3MUDdG0n5qm0QNqSEl6v1Tu6wd3undz4Og5L4sT4/NuIKyfiTgMqXyGTdoEeF dYrEjeY/pwbxHWyAmEe6rH60KyeFhhUcxwQDZcgUZ02t+OX3M4XOpHKcUcLcusIf65uY JxQ14PUz20rZPm5B1Bh667LT/ThOOYi15h6I2E008/9DT0B6Z3SHAl8xpwtUSJQmOi7r QeREyD1d7rqeEkDuWxMQqMhiJ/6UivocQIu+qiXDwEtS7Y3vcK/joqeSWNPsdSMcAnjx cF7A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVyb9hayFtbAXJ2lEfPSiIYwUvYTrNlfAZlHPwQgLPiroA4/EMnKh6Sj/gQ9UJRUIJ/BKU1/bEiBijZeA==@gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwwmYholEBTaaxjxYppSR6eqexdPXaAIkEbyKKlQJ81M7cmzMTW VZ9bTeGbZVzCGmUnVOHOdDTqHlqK1plQX0Wx9xekRnQ/rQofo2MeAaWOC2dMp+ioz0pPPbM2x8C FSc3n9qLbTkiWkBhKaHLwpHqJKyU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGVcgq/Rl/kuKbTmeHOcX9n7v2OT6C1V+Q86qjXPHJMBAzsm/8O7h2pn7J6/h9S9bMaJ6YmHxhoxJhpAeTpWWU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:2e0d:b0:6db:db7b:891c with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6e2c6ff8368mr37421027b3.14.1728133051559; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 05:57:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ploft00b.fsf@web.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x1130.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:324332 Archived-At: On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 05:41, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wr= ote: > > Hi Eduardo, > > Eduardo Ochs writes: > > > Yes! To be honest Anonymous's proposal doesn't make much sense to > > me... for example, this, > > > >> Without the user having to know about init file, packages, archives, > >> functions, variables, hooks, and endless init file debugging, or even > >> to write a single line of elisp. > >> > >> Users can be from different backgrounds not necessary hackers or > >> developers. > > > > that gives me the impression that Anynymous thinks that people should > > configure their Emacs first and learn "the rest" later, and that that > > would work very well. > > I think they have a point with that. The success of Doom=C2=B9 and Spacem= acs=C2=B2 > (to my impression many of the new Emacs users in the past decade came > from these) suggests that many users need something that just solves > their current requirements. > > Besides having pretty readable online-documentation (with Doom simply > using what github provides), they mostly provide =E2=80=9Cwhat is your ta= sk? I > will make it work well and look good.=E2=80=9D=C2=B3 > > =C2=B9 https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs > =C2=B2 https://www.spacemacs.org/ > =C2=B3 https://www.spacemacs.org/layers/LAYERS.html#programming-and-marku= p-languages > > But even these are still far too much for casual users =E2=80=94 even cas= ual > programmers. Configuring anything before being able to start is often > too much. The JetBrains (IntelliJ) page shows what > > And most current tools are available as curl-bash (curl script from > maybe trusted source and execute it without inspection). > > A writer friend of mine (also build system engineer) spent months > collecting neat adjustments to create the perfect writing environment. > That worked, because org already provides much out of the box. > > So some way of making custom emacs setups provide the UX of installing a > regular application might actually bring more users. > > I=E2=80=99m not sure whether that=E2=80=99s actually the best approach fo= r Emacs, but > something to reduce the friction of getting an emacs setup optimized to > a given task to almost zero would likely be a valuable improvement. > > > understand... and at that point we can plonk them, but we will have > > the code for (1), (2), (3), and (4), and that can be useful in the > > future... > > > > (Slightly bitter) cheers, > > Eduardo > > Please try to keep bitterness off list. I understand the sentiment, but > the times I gave in to bittereness or cynicism myself, it always hit the > wrong people, scaring active new contributors away from the project > (whom I later saw contributing constructively to other projects). Hi Arne, you are right - I've tried to learn Doom Emacs to help a friend who used it and my experience with it was so bad that I tend to forget that lots of people love it... To make a long story too short, my friend was trying to use Doom Emacs, and he was learning a kind of Lisp that was only a configuration language - only after several months I discovered that he had plans to learn things like defun and setq someday, but "next year". The idea of adding a button for beginners at the startup page and making it go to an Org page looks like a much better approach to me in comparison with Doom - and I imagine that it would let people configure Emacs in a wide spectrum of configurations that would go from Vanilla to some maximalist configurations with almost as many packages as Doom, and the Lisp code for that could be much easier to understand that the Lisp of the Doom configs... but we would need to start small, and in the process we (or rather: I) would have the opportunity to understand why lots of people find it exciting to spend six months playing with configurations, but think that understanding what defuns and setqs do is something incredibly painful, to be postponed as most as possible... Btw, I am the author of this, http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#2 http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-windows-beginner-intro.html that is for beginners and that starts by Lisp. But I need to leave now - more later. Cheers, Eduardo