From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers (was: "Why is emacs so square?") Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:54:30 +0100 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="77796"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ahmed Khanzada , "joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com" , Richard Stallman , "stefan@marxist.se" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "eliz@gnu.org" , "drew.adams@oracle.com" , ndame To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 08:55:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3rd-000K72-Fk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:55:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38390 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3rc-0005io-JS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:55:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3qp-000593-BW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:54:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3qo-0004yO-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:54:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x543.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::543]:33065) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3qm-0004sj-KN; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:54:44 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x543.google.com with SMTP id d17so3445580pgo.0; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 23:54:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XVVQXLFQWnwJ7ukyOu78rFAVSZ/ZcaHBztKPuGFPa5g=; b=SGZYwz4/Wz7otdri2TnAkU9DW5LN0TjusOTGGcS9e9MXFSnl1m4vrB7U0BJ5a2nG+8 igTQu4fmhNc7QJHWZNSIQFrOfS9ALSVVC15GCfHwvRisLfwcYUEvoqPCK1YDDuvyTlxb pnp61z1okARzqyrQcmkystBHQtGTsyYy/USeetYawYxeCbLVS+JXAIrke990R0Mlhh3f ieUlN0mdqHrWVNCDB0N+S3DKESez2PID4bTYnfBo6XW6f4hRy3eQPF+2VDewVntBoGRM 7BWmEDxl9PXPbhvYe4JdZMTqczpX1HDSafRt5fyBsMKyAHIuF8PMsBIxf+yn3l2BN77H WRxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XVVQXLFQWnwJ7ukyOu78rFAVSZ/ZcaHBztKPuGFPa5g=; b=OJ7A8q2gU2rcth2z20BniL7aOu/HYkxTdO8jRqTG8rE+GS7kFGjgMz0CgWad8q3Mcq /Rddjjewo6YJV84UsgqGVB+/Nyde821IaZQG2V9mwVAgoodZhO12Kvp2u5pSSNk6Uj9Y 0GaXwr9BXOarFN6y6VKS/OkUbyMDU0gWRxFAI5ntFJWMMXAKPJxSIhUViYg9OxMtFzny N13YQqyL2eqopqIHuEN61qgp9Nl2NqGk5BKmYeKonnT6ENL0ukVqpzL4NWUJ4IhC71sm jJaUZSlt4pCDSOZuewCq4E4LhDp+g8tqr4bFl1iwEEEAhxzGusZNCeyWc99qbDIrqOrt PTag== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYXSN/S9I96Xas1pup5N/UG+DX018KNwgQlDDAav93RmcNrPSpJ XgZZ6ax/CfXHxm9ZrL939GYCz5GGrzv7w2jB/Lk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI3C6TzaZeS38+l9CWLyR56LSuQ/mRL4fkXREG0mzKmACHwBCIiDJyG55Yqgh18mzkGQuNZsZJ0jKJnbmoGO5k= X-Received: by 2002:a63:cc03:: with SMTP id x3mr11047241pgf.28.1587279282009; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 23:54:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::543; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x543.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::543 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247281 Archived-At: There are several different ways of making Emacs more friendly for newcomers, and we should take a look at all these different ways and try to connect them somehow. I gave a presentation about my way at the last EmacsConf. It's here: http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html and I mentioned briefly in the presentation - in slides 11-13 - how I've been using it to teach Emacs to lots of beginners. To make a long story very short: 0) install Emacs and eev in their machines, 1) teach them the basics of Lisp _IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES_, 2) show them how to navigate using the keys M-e, M-j, and M-k, and the menu bar and the tool bar. >From the docs: M-e - to follow a hyperlink. Mnemonic: "(e)valuate"/"(e)xecute". M-j - to jump to certain predefined places. In particular, M-j without a numeric argument takes you to a buffer with basic help and a list of jump targets. See: http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#7.2 M-k - to go back. Mnemonic: "(k)ill buffer". Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 07:16, Po Lu wrote: > > ndame writes: > > > Looks good. These are the changes Emacs needs, so it has a nicer first > > impression for users who come from mainstream tools to give it a try. > > I don't think the general goal is for Emacs to imitate popular tools, but > instead to make it a mainstream tool. To achieve this, we do need to > make Emacs more friendly for newcomers, but we shouldn't erase the > traits that make Emacs unique (such as extreme extensibility and > customizability). > > IOW, everything added to make Emacs more friendly should be optional > (but easily discoverable), and should not break backwards-compatiblity with > existing configurations. > > Emacs has endured for 40+ years. I doubt that without the Emacsen I > remember using with squeals of delight (Epoch, XEmacs, Emacs 19), and > the various improvements they curtailed that Emacs would still be where > it is now. Let's help Emacs endure another 40 years. >