From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 07:09:28 -0300 Message-ID: References: <897ED591-43BC-4029-912A-917E5E9F6930@gmail.com> <87czlarhff.fsf@yahoo.com> <5D13C3C0-C4EB-4769-9685-25122DC9B8DC@gmail.com> <875yr2rfd1.fsf@yahoo.com> <369E183D-87EC-45AB-8352-9A780006561E@gmail.com> <87zgoeps3f.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgoeo91m.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6geo4h8.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e3d5a05d4969a5e" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2043"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions." To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 11:11:40 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xq0-0000Nh-Md for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 11:11:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43868 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xpy-0002Ob-Mk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 05:11:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56410) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xo9-0001YC-6m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 05:09:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c] (port=41626 helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3xo6-0004uf-2X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 05:09:44 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id b1-20020a17090a990100b001b14bd47532so29917196pjp.0 for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 02:09:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9gRfSpHRBMpewKM6qXIdiOGEZ3KSGW1Psu6h1wN6uV0=; b=YlAvH+jaDA3iTT9K3rnPXsQuxjd99WGj+WmcXNHozI070rfOOxQruSP8lkh86jW5+r Zi8w0iQwhuuUYzMXTk/zXrr5lHsUhnBCXtxB9O1Tse6K6quNdqBzvYep8BLbCSNGVQSZ NJNkOjjukvSfwj1mqGu/7O1KtB8Y9PIDyBCX1T8XJ4ndVuot7u6FbDIlpRw+LqAOixq5 wo67dgUNrxgPqibj6ecDFAXIn+4r/WSu7IJtQmGkUD6hL4qiN13Ejsfv5jExT8Yq2d+7 r6Eel3OtWKdeTsot/xiWE/fX5Jqeb3QD4zb6QB6PbUb/07bCMmk0iAZrIt2qLAJSn4FF tC2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9gRfSpHRBMpewKM6qXIdiOGEZ3KSGW1Psu6h1wN6uV0=; b=juhZicvioaWeG0EE/R3DSLN5bIIgK4hzEX4/zi4DC4W7lvy/6P2V8R56fcNi6t7heJ RfwO4ZBGbty0yEGA5Us/LPUfzNKuek+46pNCf68Jwy6g4A0m6Q10aUsyfLUOpBaX4Akc zvbCVGC4Gp4uo3f3dQNgvMqavRgIKeS5m08OfIQZZWA2gCA+TH7T82IFOM9P5RRT4Luw WXWLaqYHhmlE9tGhm0D73Vhy2w01fri8aozQ0C9dKLK4kXrJZp5l6b1DH2fEsBmdstHp gbgs0mfEKWEjpoxruX7OdBK+fG9T/YPtGsvGhiL54VKom/HtoaJgpFbuG7oXzpOEf+zR eUWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533wpRBChtK+MdADiJdMu5Df6n8j3nYEZ3Yuq/Q7Zd0jKlUpb6mA jRkRKeH6RLsK7j7Mo7LK+tWJ6ibw/ZcYWdfRBR4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrsH/FFCJcmiQlHVt/QXAskYicJm7n+Ash2qYStCsOjEXb1GN2EzlU0CuGm5G2UUFX/3CKkVAqrKTWbk/a6Dc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7d96:b0:142:6a63:c1cd with SMTP id a22-20020a1709027d9600b001426a63c1cdmr41941984plm.88.1641118179407; Sun, 02 Jan 2022 02:09:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87a6geo4h8.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283875 Archived-At: --0000000000001e3d5a05d4969a5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 06:49, Po Lu wrote: > xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." > writes: > > > Basically Custom is an unfinished system, it's code is not easy to > > understand, and it does not integrate with the rest of Emacs well, it > > especially does not play well with configuring things from init.el > > file. > > Custom is basically a finished system, and the whole point of it is to > make things work so that users will not have to understand it. > > And contrary to your statements, it integrates with the rest of Emacs > quite well. For example, this doesn't work: > > (setq pixel-scroll-precision-mode t) > > But this does: > > (custom-set-variables '(pixel-scroll-precision-mode t)) > > Same goes for `scroll-bar-mode', and so on. > > Where is that documented? I don't understand customize and I know a few other people from the #emacs IRC channel who are also long time Emacs users and who also say that they don't understand customize well enough... A few weeks ago I made a video - called "Org for non users" - about why I find some parts of Emacs that are "for users" very hard to understand, and showing how I am trying to make them more understandable by "non users" like me... and I would really like to do something similar for customize in the next few years. The video is here: http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html Cheers, Eduardo --0000000000001e3d5a05d4969a5e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 06:49, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
writes:

> Basically Custom is an unfinished system, it's code is not easy to=
> understand, and it does not integrate with the rest of Emacs well, it<= br> > especially does not play well with configuring things from init.el
> file.

Custom is basically a finished system, and the whole point of it is to
make things work so that users will not have to understand it.

And contrary to your statements, it integrates with the rest of Emacs
quite well.=C2=A0 For example, this doesn't work:

=C2=A0 (setq pixel-scroll-precision-mode t)

But this does:

=C2=A0 (custom-set-variables '(pixel-scroll-precision-mode t))

Same goes for `scroll-bar-mode', and so on.


<= br>I don't understand customize and I know a few other people from the<= br>#emacs IRC channel who are also long time Emacs users and who also saythat they don't understand customize well enough...

A few week= s ago I made a video - called "Org for non users" - about
why = I find some parts of Emacs that are "for users" very hard to
u= nderstand, and showing how I am trying to make them more
understandable = by "non users" like me... and I would really like to do
someth= ing similar for customize in the next few years.

The video is here:<= br>=C2=A0 http:= //angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html

Cheers,
=C2=A0 Edu= ardo

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