From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Bob Newell Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:34:57 -1000 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdwjais.fsf@yahoo.com> <6a198677-41b6-4dbd-39d0-2b01550d53cf@yandex.ru> <875zdv9jf3.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="20256"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 01:35:58 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQJTh-0005C4-W1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:35:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55193 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQJTh-0000MT-1o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:35:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42082 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQJSy-00086J-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:35:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQJSx-0001bH-En for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:35:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]:41315) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQJSw-0001Zf-Ug for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:35:11 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id c3so6517793otp.8 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:35:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobnewell-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=eQJHWVeb404ZxZRO2OsBKpA0AS1sqkms5ZBoAUXluqY=; b=g8/lbgO239qzsf6x2s12/YNV4oWL87Vo2x1e8WVh0IsE5P559/Dh3M6bb/LYn+2BBF U3kzyzPOXbNxCSxP5X4v3bK3srhFKCVfFLSpjZ3cGLKbqauwz1lvCzvyChAmcVCJ2U0t XbWQzYv/KKhQBYtbHYynldThLW+RvbDTLIY4XX/lqeb2APyde14vx7Vxi3Yas1TMYvao 8WwOgPEhbka/dn1e8p9Yl3ewfimg81Vwm3nikKeRvda+Wuj9lAGtXLlbjsFMcVSOrY7H AYFaF6fnkuBso5G9MOTVWteLP9a20+uyn5wnPEzkVeYJZqd9/Rb/LrGxus/2n6fy9ujp syWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=eQJHWVeb404ZxZRO2OsBKpA0AS1sqkms5ZBoAUXluqY=; b=qzsuR9IYKeQsn5U37iwodTganHBQs3MKkjSGl/S7PkT3Tj8cR3RK/lTt1QXVGWVGJZ roYVfPV7RHorsdsHz9Ko2uhw8YVHaLJsT0/EESCJTw0RgaYRpPDKdj+qkqP+NakyDeKa AmDweurtzHFXJCHa8+/4IG5DQntElvHMAuqpHxg9+lNOUCmx0KAlnTHLrApJZs2iVPCc 0T7Kqa99VwloXf/1RAb4/ZACl9JsGDsD+bKsDp+UEaeMtNV6Ips16q9QlLRLU3VOljJf Esaxi1OHzTGwlGwsrl3RMgenp0SuYAAGNJ85PrAeHYSB5di2T+qWixao+UPCQouMSGth WDRg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZKFFEOt7+4w2OXesb2tgBHuvKEmwBmvecOp7Agnl+6qHx4/BkE X8jr4zL9JBTznw5xQ3GogV9yVALS67lTftlkUofpksapoL8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIQqzmEUXOJqlhyaF75JoVKXIxWEGVrKU2SV8/fLAw7VYO018MbToEpDtK2Q/AaXEpLvSozc0oIYW7GqyUklbs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:d0f:: with SMTP id 15mr7753257oti.161.1587339308683; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:35:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <875zdv9jf3.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c; envelope-from=bobnewell@bobnewell.net; helo=mail-ot1-x32c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs1p.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247340 Archived-At: > You have a point. We need to figure out why VSC is so popular, and then > fill in the areas that Emacs is missing. A mostly out-of-the-box setup > probably counts in that area. In both this and other messages, I get what you're saying and the goal of making Emacs more accessible and more appealing is laudable and ambitious, but definitely in the realm of possibility. (I think /maybe/ some of the discussion is focused toward coding/software development, and Emacs is much more than that, but I'll accept that developers make up a big part of the actual and intended audience.) But keep in mind that I'm old and grumpy and have used Emacs for literally decades. When I started on Emacs back in the 80s, I knew nothing. All I had used up to that point was a series of line-oriented editors similar to 'ed'. Now (the question of graphics put aside in that pre-graphics era), how did I learn Emacs? I went through the tutorial carefully and fully. By the end of that I was a fledgling Emacs user. It was enough for me to be able to do actual work. Then, as I needed new things, I learned them. There was no internet so I relied upon the Emacs manuals, which were and are very good references. I picked up elisp as necessary. And it all worked out. Did I jump right in and use Emacs out of the box? No. I knew I was making a long-term investment in doing the tutorial, etc. So here's the grumpy old man part: I sometimes think that today, software is expected to fall into the instant gratification category. A lot of users don't want to have to learn anything, they just want a perfect out of the box experience. But I think those are conflicting expectations. Yes, make Emacs appealing and user friendly. But don't forget that a masterful tool in the end requires mastery, which can't come for free. I certainly draw the line at saying Emacs is for everyone. I'm not saying it's only for some sort of snooty "elite" but I am saying that it's for those who are willing to learn, seeing some extra work as the aforementioned long-term investment, and who have the patience reach a worthy goal a little later rather than right this very minute. -- Bob Newell Honolulu, Hawai`i Via Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB.