From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:13:50 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390000432 29818 80.91.229.3 (17 Jan 2014 23:13:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 23:13:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 18 00:14:00 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Ibv-0004TP-Ko for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:13:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40588 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Ibv-0001nz-5B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:13:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49346) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Ibr-0001my-QI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:13:57 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Ibq-0003Hj-Tc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:13:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pb0-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c01::230]:34910) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4Ibn-0003Fa-UY; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:13:52 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id rr13so4676500pbb.7 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cQ6CYCJDmigPcKrgB8XWp9AaJZBSDLLraL3dpbLSYUw=; b=f6DNx9CQc9tV+3POi6AJmK+0SA0+61Uom5ZD6HSegcFvcbQfKap2QpQcmkXeQBMP+5 fldEbhmlONDkHRIKLNc4oL9luqkBuxurxUKEOpZC9ljLqkOZksm7wB1+UBFTGWvaFyFr rpZs0im+OSOerAExezkKCKEuvXISraTGNekJlIcv8i8lIIfp22AnaFBrNnTmD8mTM5Q6 EL46Paqq+3EbB9TdlLjOZMAGtYpM6lryeMQlKZ8+NuDAuxYh2nQSzHwLc9NyeRvEdkvL 80Irfkw8rgzD5MdLS1gOZ3mknGqqmmTtCmaxX/2qktCehNU0UsX+415bzQv9ZFgTFX1Q Eiyw== X-Received: by 10.68.211.1 with SMTP id my1mr5037607pbc.55.1390000430306; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.70.37.104 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: zNjUc4wywD_Io9C0Bkc1jTR78S0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168641 Archived-At: Richard wrote: > Emacs is never going to be as easy to learn as simple > editors, because ease of learning is not its priority. > The priority is effective editing for people willing to learn. > We won't sacrifice that goal for ease of learning. I find this remark about "simple editors" interesting, not just in terms of Emacs, but of the whole GNU system. I have always thought of GNU Emacs as *the* editor in GNU, that is the default editor. Do you think a GNU system ideally instead should have some other ("simple") editor as the default editor? And that using Emacs should be an active choice for those who are ready to learn something more powerful? This is news to me in that case. I still think Emacs should be *the* editor in GNU, and that it is perfectly possible to have it like that without sacrificing the goal of effective editing. New users that only have used at most simple text editors don't really need or expect much in my experience. They type text, move around with scrolling wheel and arrow keys, and look for anything else in toolbars and menus. They can certainly do that in Emacs. (What's the point of them doing this in Emacs instead of in a simple text editor? Because some of them will become power users, and then they'll already be in Emacs when they start looking for more functionality. It's also a point that they can be thought of as doing their stuff in Emacs, because then distribution maintainers are more likely to steer users into using Emacs. It's not as if all new users make a choice between a "simple" and a "powerful" editor, but most of them will use whatever is the default one on their system, at least in the beginning, not knowing about the alternatives, and I think several GNU/Linux distributions currently don't install Emacs by default at all.) > However, when we can make Emacs easier to learn > at the cost of only _development work_, with no sacrifice in > the principal goal, why not do it? I agree. But there is another cost as well, which I think is what we much more often hear experienced users object to, namely adjustment costs *for them*. I like the suggestion of renaming "window" into "pane". It removes one part of (nowadays) peculiar terminology without big adjustment costs at all (because of aliases that would exist).