From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Fixing package-initialize, adding early init file Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:00:49 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87d16exyk5.fsf@udel.edu> <20170925231503.3tbg52ugrloxm4zb@logos.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1506394906 7447 195.159.176.226 (26 Sep 2017 03:01:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 03:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: John Wiegley , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Mark Oteiza Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 26 05:01:38 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dwg7r-0001AS-8y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 05:01:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45335 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwg7y-0005Fa-Nd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:01:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwg7o-0005EY-Vj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:01:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwg7n-0000XO-T7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:01:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]:49092) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwg7n-0000Wr-N5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:01:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 108so11074023wra.5 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:01:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/sPQaILwr46JZH+qpEmt7yQEPkieFB5WeZl7DCCOyAU=; b=kYWXT68Nsd5YxeeLObsQIzUcROwzd9uSHw0uDA7/BhhM+I08B/Gwmgt46pzRZZJfnt tG/UXgsflN9n+3zzlQo8MpQk2BskCwydLSr429KzSHuOhfhYug3mqYwSkjsZtwnFsJFd dDfupP0l0TYzica0/G61VdgTpKsbPfvBzk/Lbc98HJUTw3ttYQvlWuMopXAFghBof74D r0OkiZjrJEmXam44/pCyAYDUPwtC32ItK92RqmWmVylkqI5NHmKCKDWmVozacmheRqr0 WcM+pYgMJlMoGqYVKm+GgEZ14jzOWEABMydaWfUOYePYESO1vl5/pjCeNNYXP6fBYYXR L7ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/sPQaILwr46JZH+qpEmt7yQEPkieFB5WeZl7DCCOyAU=; b=LZ50zoFRGvOKyiNbqGIm6XFY0I5MtT73jUMavf1z2QLBXen++5RjP7vVWqfez4EswI SxDcpZPT4oYTtIw04J9YQTcWNfcDK1aBZur+Gwc8VGF2gaKiefS66ObR8jDc1i/MI0JO xE9smm2KgkejqZotjkCWvMIGJjbb2yUatBndtuaLhYa8qzGr7EbtKqMw4LEUHrjYHq/p JmCy1mCqy/BE2AnkurYUaJOj3hSl2Kladl/tUySau5alxqb2/6DeIpPn3D2wdeWTJMvw Vh9ZSXuchMjX3LymtSE0083wutfXHyZGEM9rjWzwgz1YiRAgcq+jFTUVVcLtdR9KzTSl ny8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUgc/wwIPlaSGBC2CwOQZO8GMewHyQY9CL+ONZrqsZXFN93v4duG xgu39iW76hBEvdaZPqPVcdAs9fRP+eN0kSF7Bcc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCfk02/9zCQTcpcOFFIbKNi+pznUEU/BQrWQ02E24pit1GfzRkYx+sqvqqGR/YImzq3KWIqNxM+eQpSPpfenSc= X-Received: by 10.25.150.3 with SMTP id y3mr2798806lfd.237.1506394890196; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.22.76 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:00:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170925231503.3tbg52ugrloxm4zb@logos.localdomain> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:218796 Archived-At: > > > I haven't seen one place where the problem_s_ involved have been > > > clearly articulated > > > > Unless by "problems involved" you meant more generally, for all the > > different proposals? That is exactly what [2] was intended to cover; > > could you clarify what exactly you would like articulated that hasn't > > been already? > > I meant more explicitly--each of these use cases should be documented > with examples. While the manual in its current state does explain > things, it can be better. So you're complaining about the documentation? Fine, agreed. The documentation can/should be improved. That is totally orthogonal to this patch, though. > > > this patch does not improve any of the places where user facing > > > documentation was lacking in the first place > > > > Actually, I'd disagree. I think this patch improves the situation, not > > by adding more documentation, but by reducing complexity and therefore > > reducing the need for additional documentation. > > > > In particular, we no longer need to document the placement of > > (package-initialize) in the init-file, as such placement is no longer > > necessary. > > The only documentation I see is in NEWS and the manual, which is where > the old documentation was. So, again, you're complaining about the documentation? Again, fine, agreed. But I don't think that's a reason to criticize this patch. More documentation can be added in future patches; let's not confuse matters by combining this change with general doc improvements. > > > requires the user to not only understand the forms that must be in > > > an init file > > > > Could you clarify what you mean by this? This patch has the effect > > that users can put package configuration right into their init-file, > > or use Custom to achieve the same, without having to know anything > > about the package system. > > At the cost of users who customize package.el and don't need another > init file. Right, so we benefit the 100% (people who customize packages) at the cost of the 0.1% (people who need to customize package.el in the early init-file). A win-win, no? And it's still not clear to me why you think having an early init-file is such a big problem. > package archives If I understand correctly, package-archives need not be set before package-initialize is called. Thus the number of people who would need to use the early init-file is quite small indeed. > > and this patch *maintains* that behavior. > > which is why it gets a -1 from me. The behavior I was referring to was "the built-in package manager works out of the box". Are you really saying that having the built-in package manager work out of the box is a bad thing? > An improvement from package--ensure-init-file is great, but that's still > more breakage than prior to package--ensure-init-file. Prior to package--ensure-init-file, when people pasted Lisp code from their packages' READMEs into their init-file, they would get errors. This was a very common problem for people new to Emacs, see [1]. That affects everyone, so it should be considered "major breakage". > Emacs itself doesn't work OOTB for most people. I think we all agree that this is a bad thing. Shouldn't we be trying to remedy this problem? > That it's customizable in Elisp is a feature. Yeah, but having sane defaults gets more and more important the more powerful your tool gets. [1]: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-03/msg01016.html