From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Friendly discussion about (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:31:01 -0700 Message-ID: References: <83inhwrqvh.fsf@gnu.org> <83h8xfsx5m.fsf@gnu.org> <83bmnns0jm.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502393552 19182 195.159.176.226 (10 Aug 2017 19:32:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 19:32:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 10 21:32:28 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dftBt-0004IV-0q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:32:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54933 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftBz-0006Yc-4J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:32:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33751) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftBK-0006YL-Mz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:31:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftBJ-0005iO-Ii for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:31:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]:36812) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftBH-0005hv-R0; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:31:43 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id o85so7775039lff.3; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:31:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m63L+pAqUfAGSoIxKla2Qi4uPEf2I71JvEPlIgg00Vs=; b=pA2bQEbFRXylKuXk7+6MZ28M35MXPf/XGTeKYnBh97SiSzpiGHQ61zYSjn5A6feJ6B MGTmnWWt5LvaoP9Q1psQ6unb54SYa24cP76i76aYWnNnnvjIIl1ex5cPv8zcRzCnEW4r DyF+bkolcDY7WZ0k/eLdECE8crusL08DcAoxLb+WwOlqrzPoktRgIjVLqfqXD2sWPGQT GASGXvLh9aKVbfn1j6Uah3poXaGjVKBVufYP8Ty/uQ5JheHNvPfxxkCHPjGok6D/ZuVq SDs3nb0k8MFJ6prJwXnLhwc4EpX8LcyylzctAFPDvq30au5zqX12FtWoupG189o+L0ZP 2srw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m63L+pAqUfAGSoIxKla2Qi4uPEf2I71JvEPlIgg00Vs=; b=ryXiFIRtJ0Qlf88Hrtyjx5jrtyyl//2uGganrxdI1JS09IwExLhojE6k9qj3sU3EpD UCQ0QYMKTuyc13b189QcliXwFwb38wLqQVcFkBkYIJOt6jgmjA2L9LBG23+9Z50FA0f9 aoRW0slP8UlRVuHxVj+Sa5BHpvhlflfB9Ckm3qfxUO0vNuPjtuZ/h/sL0X1ZDLSAZTD3 Gze2pastf1DkY6dLowe1mTMrI9ix01NcaWMfgN/HbN62ab3zd+51C3x963DPtuFSsbjY KEVP5a6c2yHw0Xrz/xVxRm48whCDY9dgsgL6wTglCCaegduKlx5FZGKnxQOFmjXW2NNC 0esg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hu06VwcQ7t2sb8Ct4SW7rchkwZImjFO9IpBBfLIdVoWhiW0KcK drhXczYlNtOwmmIgWczsRnYpjrJxFkecPPE= X-Received: by 10.25.27.20 with SMTP id b20mr4435760lfb.131.1502393502173; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.46.64.86 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:31:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83bmnns0jm.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217398 Archived-At: > I'm probably missing some details here I'm missing some details too, since I don't use the Custom system, and that seems to have been part of this discussion in the past. I expect that the fact there are so many details is what makes this discussion keep coming up, because nobody's solution caters to every use case. > using hooks is not such scary stuff for new users Fine, but do we really want to tell users to put the entirety of their init-file inside `after-init-hook'? That seems like an anti-pattern to me. It's either `package-initialize' which has to move, or the entire rest of the init-file. It makes more sense to me to move `package-initialize'. > new users aren't expected to mess with this anyway So if we implemented a template init-file, then new users who didn't have a init-file previously would not need to do anything. Furthermore, existing users who are comfortable with customizing Emacs would not have a problem either, since the concept of "you must initialize the package management system before you can use packages" is trivially simple. The only people disadvantaged are new users who already had an existing init-file. If we keep calling `package-initialize' in startup.el, then things will work as expected for these users as well, unless they happen to manually write some customizations of packages into their init-file. But now the set of users who are disadvantaged is limited to: 1. new users 2. who aren't comfortable with modifying their init-file 3. who nevertheless had an existing init-file 4. and nevertheless add Lisp code directly to their init-file anyway In my opinion, this is a rather narrow intersection, and the problems introduced by automatic modification of the init-file far outweigh the inconvenience to this group of users. > that doesn't really answer my question. I asked why do we put a call > to package-initialize into user init file when we already have that > very call in startup.el. You'll have to ask Stefan. I am the one arguing that this behavior makes no sense and should be eliminated ASAP. In short, however, this measure was introduced in an effort to allow for package customizations to be put in the init-file without `package-initialize' also being put in the init-file (by the user). best, Radon