From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:18:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: <83tw12cocz.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503332445 6543 195.159.176.226 (21 Aug 2017 16:20:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:20:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 21 18:20:38 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1djpRN-0001Cb-Bw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:20:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59063 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djpRS-0001uS-Jr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:20:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40007) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djpQK-0001rO-80 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:19:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djpQJ-00036N-9b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:19:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x229.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::229]:35627) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djpQJ-00035p-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:19:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id k186so13188916lfe.2 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TZGuI/GnXar0D+DcOfbWFl3CL4Keg//+B6GyEmdgoTk=; b=BLlDUZNsrFeNtnWMPkdXKj7nyLvCP9R5JncKeAeMfeU3rV1nmXvMHL1SY/ZzczPw1d Rxxmgk+OmDTSGfQeKt3bjpQeE47kAoYrzicnNV+kWxiYBwDyQPEChpgC4IHd4AxkuiIr EgZ0PcOr6exeag/BJrIg5ZUobrRB/8fVyVNGxVoSJ8vJQZTopN2jcRYDAH3NjGRtcbCl WfQIlB5aUbglcxssFxX5ht4GMdv7MvjVCxQsUor86/33V4CE47wX3696JRPRFMl1I0E3 QP9cGFIW+oRDnZ5TfuKi4ZyAo3XDbtY63n6ondSQEhjsSlwe0Z5aNbvbjwBWqPvIzF6s mXiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TZGuI/GnXar0D+DcOfbWFl3CL4Keg//+B6GyEmdgoTk=; b=nhfddCrTYoT1qoYFOwA1rKZCktqR5QzH2j8ltLDfvVslOVuNS4XXu9ZwJGoJO8wwyf 2b7hYCr55RhftNkFnMqKT4sr0pNDFUwJ36crcssWVIEhONze1coZTX3AQmnT12V0aOlV KQaVqeu3k9cWEOwvHT8ghNHu9D8oGYrZ5F6S+pxB14+5tnKcDokOdtTLTy1Q8dQqoHni yxtvnLEeJrj7ciO18XX2nH2POIVjSQrBx8vKJSeBQA0CIi86iUT5/bGnUjVkvSpq/5I9 MWtvZaMqMnttzjei23j2k/72yPAZd+zUyurySoHrSFQWglDt+0QuDAdrc2C8SIxex8GN +9Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5inxaQG7bYY96QqmHmhZ5ZuUTmwzpb2/O+HUsEji7onMlEr+Pt1 P+QTK3QAePVa0Hd66r/G6fQr9RTs8nu19b3EzA== X-Received: by 10.46.76.9 with SMTP id z9mr6341246lja.134.1503332369510; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.80.3 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217656 Archived-At: > > I think we should instead explore the possibility that > > package-initialize will be called only in startup.el. > > I think this is unlikely to work well. Agreed. The only way I can see this possibly working is if we introduce a second init-file, which IMO is way too much overkill for supporting a single package out of the thousands in Emacs. > I think a better long-term ideal situation is either: > > - call package-initialize before reading ~/.emacs (this will require > finding some way to handle the case where the user wants to change > package.el's configuration in his .emacs). > - call package-initialize automatically when needed, by having a more > declarative way to configure packages in ~/.emacs. > > The first approach looks easier from where I sit, but that's just > a gut feeling. There's also my proposal. From where *I* sit, that proposal looks like the easiest, both for the end user and implementation-wise. Let's make sure to do a comparison before discarding it. > In the short term, we can tweak the current approach so that > package--ensure-init-file is called in fewer cases. E.g. only call it > during package installation rather than at Emacs startup. If that can be done right away, please let's do that right away. But we can't stop there; having Emacs modify the init-file in this way is still fundamentally broken.