From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:04:01 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c93165-2d85-8501-9cc8-99830b7b3646@gmail.com> <37bdcd8e-2bb4-fd21-d833-838bd26f5e56@gmail.com> <3b9259d8-4121-531e-5dd9-4eef9ef4a69a@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f19d6c052cc055789870f" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503623101 32706 195.159.176.226 (25 Aug 2017 01:05:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 01:05:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 25 03:04:55 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dl33O-0008B2-3K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2017 03:04:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51010 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dl33T-00020s-7N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 21:04:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48461) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dl33F-0001zb-OB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 21:04:46 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dl33E-0007Ti-Mg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 21:04:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]:36437) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dl33E-0007TS-F1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 21:04:44 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z130so4274086lff.3 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:04:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4PH9C0hdUMdrFymbwYBxRGUnZOUUESnDCukKKdifMGc=; b=P+0AwjEdETPbXLxl9dwoIBLBE01dgIAJfN/LQDYr3IGUiZ+zi9EMGXD6IZfXYx2g8j 2Lau4rE7AYIt4Hs9pRMZQ11EYVjBT9fW06Tsc/7Vb1OZ6QUV0j9HDiexwvUYRFy5yA51 hmOSIZfcfwf/oALN/fEoVwwjPv6P6Pomk3sDrxPPLE3EYAS5GA8Di4eUf40gfTDkxW2s sQy9B+S6Mp3WJBn2BpH93NgRjT6i0e5C6LE1n92NXh7n6ymJqPOxjuy+IJZ9wsx346vn zRuYHo1YMjT5qwIob0lLkg0Tbsqo6yXDZRO7cugWR9NRFvX0b2yHBI+M5psx7YZBv8ui ZpbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4PH9C0hdUMdrFymbwYBxRGUnZOUUESnDCukKKdifMGc=; b=hWQu3RxwqQojtJ8b3ZAqjB7JoGdh4EWBpxfufxIYAU8m/YyjZUt31Z53rWFxdfKape 5YkCQK7Ldjf6/Z5LRbfmGISaPwUpbDO5voirWkZIPk1nR/WPPGVp+b1orjwQYjl5cxed 1A+gKKqBckQ3cu9i8DwMOHOj+b3kmkU7YwNxOq2eCtJXVdtfaGFxseFzvA7x5aSukkve IqCHODnkEIn9QsJ8Xt681BETXOHcR/lFlYvdBRNtqQkbu1EcqpuKzifUWv0srdgrniLm 8CVFg4N2oR1wqBszKF0c6k9jH08tByr2zGKv6MvMA1Y6pMt4zfrjRW6cMO4djnfgbIUK vSTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5inkXssWPponi5mgjXA0LE57Ztt7TzhTiG/0d9qHdXqJqxuOenX kyrxjJUUQpIDqh4h7YsnCQbZfYrAsw== X-Received: by 10.25.20.30 with SMTP id k30mr1071916lfi.252.1503623083215; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.42.215 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:04:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3b9259d8-4121-531e-5dd9-4eef9ef4a69a@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217790 Archived-At: --001a113f19d6c052cc055789870f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > But you still haven't addressed the real problem, which is that > > when Emacs inserts `package-initialize' into the init-file, it > > usually does so incorrectly. > > I have addressed this before - "in case you a)don't use package.el > and b)don't use any other package manager and c)don't suppress the > proposed message manually, it's pretty safe to assume that you don't > have much of init anyway and you're our intended target". So in other words, your solution still does the wrong thing, it's just that this fact is unlikely to cause real trouble? I still think we should be aiming for a solution which always does the right thing. In any case, as Eli has pointed out, adding flashy interactive messages should be avoided except as a last resort. Adding ~/.emacs.d/.package-initialize.el is not intrusive, and most users need not know the file even exists. Adding a popup dialog that happens to every user at least once is highly intrusive. > P. S. I think that instead of using the phrase "second init-file" > you should use "separate package.el config". I shall. In fact, I am very much a fan of Eli's suggestion: a ~/.emacs.d/.package-initialize.el file, to be read by package-initialize before it does anything else In any case, the point is that this solution has NO PRACTICAL DISADVANTAGES. Whereas every other solution has the potential to annoy the user in some situation. In that light, it seems to make most sense to choose the package-initialize.el solution. --001a113f19d6c052cc055789870f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > But you still haven't addressed the rea= l problem, which is that
> > when Emacs inserts `package-in= itialize' into the init-file, it
> > usually does so in= correctly.
>
> I have addressed this before - &qu= ot;in case you a)don't use package.el
> and b)don't us= e any other package manager and c)don't suppress the
> pro= posed message manually, it's pretty safe to assume that you don't
> have much of init anyway and you're our intended target&q= uot;.

So in other words, your solution still does = the wrong thing, it's just
that this fact is unlikely to caus= e real trouble? I still think we
should be aiming for a solution = which always does the right thing.

In any case, as= Eli has pointed out, adding flashy interactive
messages should b= e avoided except as a last resort. Adding
~/.emacs.d/.package-ini= tialize.el is not intrusive, and most users
need not know the fil= e even exists. Adding a popup dialog that happens
to every user a= t least once is highly intrusive.

> P. S. I thi= nk that instead of using the phrase "second init-file"
= > you should use "separate package.el config".

<= /div>
I shall. In fact, I am very much a fan of Eli's suggestion:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a ~/.emacs.d/.package-initialize.el f= ile, to be read by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 package-initialize before it doe= s anything else

In any case, the point is that thi= s solution has NO PRACTICAL
DISADVANTAGES. Whereas every other so= lution has the potential to annoy
the user in some situation. In = that light, it seems to make most sense
to choose the package-ini= tialize.el solution.

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