From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 17:30:34 -0600 Message-ID: References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000550eba0574af7878" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535671762 19099 195.159.176.226 (30 Aug 2018 23:29:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 23:29:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, flexibeast@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel To: hw@adminart.net Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 31 01:29:18 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWNI-0004oE-Bc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 01:29:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51214 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWPO-0001eT-Jm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:31:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53398) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWPD-0001eM-8f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:31:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWPC-0006dc-4M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:31:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::131]:47063) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWPA-0006bZ-Cv; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:31:12 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id e23-v6so8535241lfc.13; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:31:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5TRgj0QlU6vOHbvJuXOBGK5eCNAA+lA9BoP/rdF/iIA=; b=AmPIlYOxxfNK6CIVEA4f3ZzRKiTxwXyL3mS8nH4fsYvtv4YbZLj8oJUI4Cudrg5JTZ vl7LymYiOWd7e1xF/DjPOs55un54M+5sPCIxLmptQyaYKz/UNCHwLAXNf3YBImROGakD gvF7dC2h39kTG+PVdd4p7FcTuUVnxd4qBRemTpDMFy2DKLeWuoDLy0qDjUUBvAfiHVap 6ooMJsWcECQ0gY7c0f17R/6ovO5s87cjti2WykvE/BLsrzpVx281Oeyh+TrLIlJxILIU 6MuWxVkCiF9I4XDOU8Yk2Kxh/XqzzlhHxTiXIDxIWDM/6N1vdMnv45RhwNpiF9aQgmWm C1RA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5TRgj0QlU6vOHbvJuXOBGK5eCNAA+lA9BoP/rdF/iIA=; b=oespvhbuqRcKgGIM6E9SsbQK4odSdMjSQWMo/xYx5hRASPQwSxlU6/OH+4FerD/iwb pkbE57Oy6LLcDo8KGPb8ufHgM0qKl6vxVAx4/fW6KMRAVssVsRyFeEyxEvE1smwYrVbE nE9wJFQQ/KzVCnAq+p+iZpHudoNO749P9PtptV1NnmBJ4bIdOhjbccTfSn3EVkkVJv3Z o4J+5mRUbyPc3vBgUux2Y+YKBhibcrziZhpqJvcrHI3d1DwyHjFR4/SQZfBJvNRJa672 6d7VVkn9BX7TfJvOpfuilldZkKDdaPDr+V2K2eDiB6yB4RGX57OEybJhP3B0cGjJCOCK ZtQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51DkjzG3gHov80+zKtnsk6HUMEqzRm2u7L9C2wpoxQ5KS1SmH2Zj e6i47lzyAPqo/rtNn3Z8AhfoAGLRgI1NLQHLcmzxl1Xe X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdaiHU72fGREq0aX3WyXUb1erMwBZ3BGGBlImDbxxOOhkz/K6KKLo9pMK5BUGYYnoJQn9eGmo4JRf+H/jitY1kE= X-Received: by 2002:a19:17e6:: with SMTP id 99-v6mr9188438lfx.48.1535671870491; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:31:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::131 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229125 Archived-At: --000000000000550eba0574af7878 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > How is it relevant whether it takes 50ms more or less to start > Emacs? Because I can notice a difference of 50ms in a delay that happens very frequently. And yes, I restart Emacs very frequently. Easily a dozen times a day if I am doing active development on my Emacs configuration, which happens often. > Is that even within the error margin of the measurements? Sure, there's some variation (although usually less than 150ms). But the mean value going down by 50ms is equally valuable regardless of the variance. > I just keep Emacs running on my server in a tmux session. I know that works for you (and many others), but it doesn't work for me. The reason it doesn't work for me is that I develop very actively on my Emacs configuration. This means that Emacs needs to be restarted frequently to avoid outdated configuration from causing problems (which, yes, can be worked around easily by evaluating code in the current session -- but it's a lot easier to just restart and wait half a second, with no thought required). The Emacs server also has some big usability problems for me (not bugs, but just things that make me personally prefer not to use it). Firstly, the mode line highlighting is shared between all sessions, and doesn't behave in the way one might expect if one is used to launching Emacs sessions directly. Secondly, it's not easy to share an Emacs server between graphical and terminal sessions -- so I'd need to run two servers, and the problem of having Emacs servers with outdated configuration gets twice as bad. > you can't keep up with me anyway ;P Fair enough. My configuration loads and quits a tty frame in 500ms, whereas emacsclient does the same in only 100ms. For me, the usability problems of the server are worth 400ms to avoid, since I don't pop in and out of Emacs to edit different files, only to reload my configuration. There's not really any point in arguing about which way is "better". If you want your Emacs state to be clean in the face of a rapidly changing configuration, it's better to not use the server. If you don't care about that, nor are you bothered by any of the problems I mentioned above, then it's better to use the server. It just depends on your preferences -- but I want to make it clear that there *are* reasons that some people don't use the server, and actually do care about init time. Best, Radon --000000000000550eba0574af7878 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> How is it relevant whether it takes 50ms more or= less to start
> Emacs?

Because I can notice a d= ifference of 50ms in a delay that happens very
frequently. And ye= s, I restart Emacs very frequently. Easily a dozen
times a day if= I am doing active development on my Emacs
configuration, which h= appens often.

> Is that even within the error margin of th= e measurements?

Sure, there's some variation (although us= ually less than 150ms). But
the mean value going down by 50ms is = equally valuable regardless of
the variance.

> I= just keep Emacs running on my server in a tmux session.

I kn= ow that works for you (and many others), but it doesn't work for
<= div>me. The reason it doesn't work for me is that I develop very active= ly
on my Emacs configuration. This means that Emacs needs to be r= estarted
frequently to avoid outdated configuration from causing = problems
(which, yes, can be worked around easily by evaluating c= ode in the
current session -- but it's a lot easier to just r= estart and wait half
a second, with no thought required).
The Emacs server also has some big usability problems for me (not
bugs, but just things that make me personally prefer not to use it)= .
Firstly, the mode line highlighting is shared between all sessi= ons,
and doesn't behave in the way one might expect if one is= used to
launching Emacs sessions directly. Secondly, it's no= t easy to share an
Emacs server between graphical and terminal se= ssions -- so I'd need to
run two servers, and the problem of = having Emacs servers with outdated
configuration gets twice as ba= d.

> you can't keep up with me anyway ;P

Fair enough. My configuration loads and quits a tty frame in 500ms,
<= div>whereas emacsclient does the same in only 100ms. For me, the usability<= /div>
problems of the server are worth 400ms to avoid, since I don'= t pop in
and out of Emacs to edit different files, only to reload= my
configuration.

There's not really any point= in arguing about which way is "better".
If you want yo= ur Emacs state to be clean in the face of a rapidly
changing conf= iguration, it's better to not use the server. If you
don'= t care about that, nor are you bothered by any of the problems I
= mentioned above, then it's better to use the server. It just depends
on your preferences -- but I want to make it clear that there *are*=
reasons that some people don't use the server, and actually = do care
about init time.

Best,
Radon
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