From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Only signal package.el warnings when needed Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 11:43:39 -0700 Message-ID: References: <83k1j7dyu3.fsf@gnu.org> <8336ptet50.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000053a247057f838c1f" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1547577805 12889 195.159.176.226 (15 Jan 2019 18:43:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:43:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 15 19:43:21 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gjTgH-0003GE-1n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:43:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47478 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gjTiO-0000wV-1e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:45:32 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41485) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gjThQ-0000wK-9n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:44:33 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gjThE-00083p-8p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:44:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-xe42.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e42]:42637) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gjThB-00080Q-73; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:44:17 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-xe42.google.com with SMTP id b74so2273636vsd.9; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:44:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aRTvGGqAGdPyrBPpf7SkJ/KykY4uTp/EtTrZNlUyxQo=; b=GAVpjhplO2Q9EBBuU11I38OM+i4xN7keVwDV75idBz5sE9AaKGUcQSksVOO2XH0q2B OW5PI4stEJUGAG4cOoKwPLXxTU9OU/38ouVkvwChKAGjuwKnAOZjKTkGf14Jx5r/b9UA H3FfRBnp1Y/CkbcaXm7dCmPylCQp4V8TpIdoba6Btm3IlyCQV9mJ0k4oLy3MOygVpood ZRe47SJdkNOZeb2eVSMoCjq04Kq6Gkh/9GIrKiMEjKWt4fsVT6mDVw1v+tTdYLs1i3/q G5/GehsGnOJUbt7vgHKLhQfJ5IbPTTzQZAuPPXdn43HGSYguMkfi9KTSQvQjESmNfrO/ yv0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aRTvGGqAGdPyrBPpf7SkJ/KykY4uTp/EtTrZNlUyxQo=; b=ToHYwYwchYjsnYdozmVplP/dtQ6ZcrrC+bG/fVtbk8j/wRbyOIimwde7I/rOehpc9B gTjTUekxdf4YbqI+bvHUpb8X+fa5yttkYi4OlT3h1rsH/vcS65Ndl/X05ePPetEwv1j/ BwhZb7SAhekbJwxW9IJb5HjfrYswhpzucBambcqBYpifNNJEGII5X2pPgifGvFmvCY0V 6G1V5Ls4EOaSDuKvGPG/X3AuNo8Fxm9wCKcVRPvbB+YO7fpojEhBKBQD9KC9ryEm70fz UmWWgdUwIilcOPgsEwXxd1vDH1j2by2DlmlgpGr7nj1WMgSxmjjsrwxq9hovL1uTpEkr F0Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdIZxRllKUPz9gS2pf0eDa5UBIEobVmlZH3f1E61EBhASRpBEBT cDKzWY2BGEUTHcPI0J+xm0gLrWa8tZIoaRgsMcd8kw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4Kxwq+ua0yU3MklBvSHmDBoy9q0k/NPAqow0korG8ZJAgOB8fnui0Qf8LilUNsM551I6T8wQpPfjhYqSFHoHo= X-Received: by 2002:a67:688b:: with SMTP id d133mr2127137vsc.126.1547577855286; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:44:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8336ptet50.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e42 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:232368 Archived-At: --00000000000053a247057f838c1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > From: Eli Zaretskii > Date: Jan 15, 2019, 10:19 AM > > I'm saying that we should hear the complaints first and devise the > solution only after that. If we wait until Emacs 27.2 to fix the complaints, then it will already be too late to do anything useful, since everyone will have already suffered and changed their init-files. The inconvenience is a one-time occurrence, so fixing it after the fact will do nothing. It is like seeing a building about to catch fire, and deciding to wait until after it's burned down to bring in the fire trucks. I view the current situation as quite unacceptable: the most prominent result on Google when you search for the warning message suggests the following: (unless package--initialized (package-initialize t)) That means when Emacs 27 is released we're going to see this code show up in everybody's init-files (upgrade -> "what's this weird warning?" -> Google -> copy/paste -> "oh good, it's gone now"). I don't think that's acceptable, because `package--initialized' is an internal variable which should not be referenced in user code. Even if we fix the problem in Emacs 27.2, that won't help to get these references to `package--initialize' out of people's init-files. Deciding not to merge this patch or something similar will create a massive amount of technical debt in places we can't touch (everyone's Emacs configurations). Best, Radon --00000000000053a247057f838c1f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Date: Jan 15, 2019, 10:19 AM
>
> I'm saying that we should hear the complain= ts first and devise the
> solution only after that.

<= div>If we wait until Emacs 27.2 to fix the complaints, then it will
already be too late to do anything useful, since everyone will have
already suffered and changed their init-files. The inconvenience is a=
one-time occurrence, so fixing it after the fact will do nothing= . It
is like seeing a building about to catch fire, and deciding = to wait
until after it's burned down to bring in the fire tru= cks.

I view the current situation as quite unacceptable: the = most prominent
result on Google when you search for the warning m= essage suggests the
following:

(unless package--ini= tialized (package-initialize t))

That means when Emacs 27 is = released we're going to see this code show
up in everybody= 9;s init-files (upgrade -> "what's this weird warning?"
-> Google -> copy/paste -> "oh good, it's gone no= w"). I don't think
that's acceptable, because `packa= ge--initialized' is an internal
variable which should not be = referenced in user code.

Even if we fix the problem in Emacs = 27.2, that won't help to get these
references to `package--in= itialize' out of people's init-files.
Deciding not to mer= ge this patch or something similar will create a
massive amount o= f technical debt in places we can't touch (everyone's
Ema= cs configurations).

Best,
Radon

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